A&H

ARS vs CIT

hat didn't happen by magic, it's the result of better-written rules with clear flow charts (like the one I pasted in the Spurs Liv thread as an example) to help referees categorise difficult decisions appropriately and consistently.

Maybe it's impossible to produce a similar level of clarity and procedure in football, but there's been little visible effort to even try and do so. At the very least, I think a flowchart-like process should be possible for handball and SFP even with existing laws, but I doubt that's the limit of areas where some more clarity could theoretically be introduced.
It has been established longer in rugby, and let's not forget there have been some absolute howlers made in video reviews, just as there have been in football. The profile of rugby is much lower than football though so they don't get as much publicity when they happen. That isn't to say football can't learn from rugby though, just as any process shouldn't learn from a more established, and arguably better, one.

With the current handball law there is already effectively a flowchart. Was the arm in the expected position for the footballing action being performed. If no handball, if yes play on. OK, that's simplifying it a bit, but the current offside law is very straightforward. The problem is it relies on human judgement, and I can't see any way of avoiding that, other than saying it is always handball if the ball strikes an arm no matter where it is placed. That human judgement is much less common in rugby and it is usually black and white.
They might all be the same "level", but there's still a lead official and two assisting touch judges.

At the end of the day, if the rugby referee and the consulted touch judge disagree, the referees say will go. The touch judge isn't there to have an equal say in a democratic voting procedure, they're there to sanity check the ref and provide a sounding board for any debatable aspects. I don't see any reason why an SG1 AR couldn't do that job.
The difference is all are international referees in their own right, so there's a much more formal hierarchy in football. To use an example, the process for the knock on by Farrell at the end of the England vs Fiji game really didn't look good to me. The Australian touch judge didn't seem to be taking no for an answer, he kept questioning the decision saying are you sure and seemed to me intent on having the last say. This wasn't the referee having a sounding board, rather the other way round.

In any case though this already happens in football, just over comms that no one can hear except the officials.
ig screens for this are great, but there's no reason to pretend they're mandatory. Any existing ground without a big screen can be grandfathered in and the small VAR screens used until those grounds decide to install a big screen.

And in the long run, the grounds will be incentivised to do so because it's essentially providing a worse experience for in-stadium fans without that big screen for clarity and to stop the "standing around confused and waiting for something to happen" that we get with current VAR.
Fair point, although the VAR screens are so small I can't really see three people crowding round. That's a different question though, why are referees expected to make massive decisions by watching a TV screen little bigger than a 1980s portable.

The big issue here is there is a reason why controversial decisions can't be shown in the ground. Football has a very, very different spectator base to rugby, and when football decisions have accidentally been displayed it has caused a crowd disturbance. Can you really imagine a penalty decision being shown live on a big screen whilst the match officials try to make a decision? I can't.

And that highlights another big difference, perceived injustices just aren't reacted to the same across the two sports. Take the Tom Curry sending off against Argentina, most pundits though that was incredibly harsh, but the response in the media was muted, there was no big uproar. Compare that to what the reaction would have been if that was Declan Rice being sent off in the opening game of the next World Cup for a minor foul. There would be total meltdown with players, managers, pundits, the media, fans, pretty much everyone. The two sports really just don't compare.
 
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Fellow members clearly don't agree as we get complaints when it happened.

In any case, this is a refereeing forum. Therefore anyone posting on here about on-pitch decision related conspiracy theories are clearly implying wrong doing by referees. It isn't the right place. None of us would be happy if clubs we have officiated posted on Facebook or Twitter suggesting we were less than impartial, so in what parallel universe is it acceptable to allow posts on a dedicated refereeing forum suggesting our top level officials are less than impartial, even if sub-consciously?
I'm not posting about the sorta nonsense that generates complaints. Well not this time anyway ;)

I'm guilty of posting some stuff to stir up debate. I don't always believe everything I post as binary black & white. But it's entirely true that bias is a human trait. Problem being, it's too difficult to discuss on-line because the written word is difficult to contextualize and lacks nuance, so we dodge the subject on that basis... and I don't blame you as Mod for not wanting to go there. But it exists in many forms and I'm happy to leave it there.

We should also be mindful that sport has a long history of scandal and they're just the scandals we know about. Anywhere there's money, there's risk, but it's not worth getting into. Just saying

As for the VAR being in the Middle East a few days before VAR's darkest day, I don't think it was a contributory factor. You only have to listen to any of the VAR audio to realize that amateurish and sloppy 'matey' chat without using clearly defined language was the root cause
 
The big issue here is there is a reason why controversial decisions can't be shown in the ground. Football has a very, very different spectator base to rugby, and when football decisions have accidentally been displayed it has caused a crowd disturbance. Can you really imagine a penalty decision being shown live on a big screen whilst the match officials try to make a decision? I can't.
Which is why hearing the audio live is a long long way off. Or so it should be
Even for the TV audience, it will be awful. Unless you've got shares in LG cos plenty TVs will get chucked outa plenty of windas
 
Relevant to this thread, PGMOL have decided not to release any refereeing audio from this match. I don't think Oliver made a clear and obvious mistake (relating to a red card) but it would be useful to hear the discussions about not awarding a straight red card or second yellow card. Because they haven't released it, I can only assume that the audio is rather embarrassing for the officials.
 
Relevant to this thread, PGMOL have decided not to release any refereeing audio from this match. I don't think Oliver made a clear and obvious mistake (relating to a red card) but it would be useful to hear the discussions about not awarding a straight red card or second yellow card. Because they haven't released it, I can only assume that the audio is rather embarrassing for the officials.
Not sure what you mean but it was included in the latest episode of Match Officials Mic’d Up so the audio has been released
 
Not sure what you mean but it was included in the latest episode of Match Officials Mic’d Up so the audio has been released

He's on about the Arsenal City game where no audio was released but I suspect that programme was recorded on the Monday(to be broadcast on the Tuesday) which is only one day after the match so may not of had access to the audio to be included in it.

We shall see if it gets bought up in the next programme although it depends how much controversy we see between now and then. In all honesty, I think the reaction was some thought it was yellow and some thought it was a red so I don't think the VAR made a howler there although the second challenge should of definately been a second yellow and it just smacks of Oliver managing a big game rather than refereeing a football match.
 
Relevant to this thread, PGMOL have decided not to release any refereeing audio from this match. I don't think Oliver made a clear and obvious mistake (relating to a red card) but it would be useful to hear the discussions about not awarding a straight red card or second yellow card. Because they haven't released it, I can only assume that the audio is rather embarrassing for the officials.
It will indeed be interesting to see if the audio is shared publicly. Suffice to say, it has been widely shared within PGMOL and (whatever the rights or wrongs of the two decisions) the audio is in no way embarrassing for either Michael Oliver or the VAR team.
 
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