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Applying advantage and awarding a dropped ball instead of a free kick

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Lefelee

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Let's say that there is an offence committed against the goalkeeper when he holds the ball that leads you to stop the game to give a caution or verbal warning (late challenge, obstructing him from releasing the ball, etc). Are you allowed to blow your whistle, award the caution or the warning, and restart play with a dropped ball, so that the goalkeeper can pick up the ball, instead of having to kick it from the ground? Am I wrong if I say that such a decision is sound and shows a good understanding for the game and its spirit?
 
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If you are stopping play for a late challenge....then the restart would be a FK.

For the obstructing from releasing, if no contact made then it's an IDFK (unless old age is getting to me), and if contact is made than its a DFK.

You can't just decide to turn it into a drop ball because you think it's 'fairer'!
 
To issue a caution you would wait until play has stopped... So, you blow for the free kick immediately and caution or wait until the ball goes out of play. From the keepers hands, you'd stop play there and then to issue your caution and the fk.

If you caution a player for a bad challenge and then give a drop ball, you'd then be expected to do it after every foul. Don't go down that route
 
You can't stop play to issue a warning and restart with a drop ball. Say, you have a player who is getting himself in the keeper's way as he's trying to release - manage it verbally. Loudly tell him to leave the keeper alone. If you're stopping play, you're awarding an IFK because an offence has occurred. You can't stop play to talk to somebody about an offence that almost occurred.

The alternative is to pull them aside next time the ball is out of play. Same with a late challenge - if it's a little late and not too bad, then 'you've got the ball keeper - let's watch those tackles!' usually gets the message across. Sometimes you'll want to award a FK just to get the point across about those challenges, even though it's technically more advantageous for the keeper to have it in his hand.

You cannot ever stop play to caution a player and award a drop ball. That's against the LOTG. (well, technically you can if 2 opposing players have committed simultaneous cautionable offences, but that's such an extremely rare situation I'd advise to not even be thinking about it at this stage. 99.99% of the time, somebody did it first, so that's the direction the kick is going against)
All of these offences - kicking an opponent (late challenge falls under that) or preventing the goalkeeper from releasing the ball - are Law 12 offences, so there's an appropriate DFK or IFK for those. You can also choose to award a caution if appropriate, but you're either stopping play and awarding the DFK/IFK or allowing play to continue.

The final Indirect Free Kick offence allows you to award an IFK for any reason not previously specified for which play is stopped to caution or send off a player. If you stop play to caution a player for dissent, for instance, then this is the clause that tells you it's an IFK restart.
 
CapnBloodbeard said:
You cannot ever stop play to caution a player and award a drop ball. That's against the LOTG. (well, technically you can if 2 opposing players have committed simultaneous cautionable offences, but that's such an extremely rare situation I'd advise to not even be thinking about it at this stage. 99.99% of the time, somebody did it first, so that's the direction the kick is going against)
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What about a scenario where you turn around and see two players indulging in a spot of 'handbags' off the ball: some pushing and shoving but not worthy of VC? My instinct would be to stop play and caution the pair for USB (adopting an agressive attitude), but because they're both at it, it would be difficult to award a FK either way. As such, I'd be thinking restart with dropped ball.
 
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Very rare for that to happen. Usually you'll be alerted to it just when the start standing and glaring at each other, in which case you'll spot the first push. You're correct that that's the scenario, but I've never seen that scenario come up first-hand.
 
There will always be one side that outweighs the other or one that is mor involved such that from what you have SEEN you can give a directional FK evening you caution both. Only time I've given a DP is when there's been an injury, extra ball is the pitch or I have stopped play for a reason of my choice not because of an offence.
 
I had exactly this, and you're right, you usually see the first push. The away team were questioning everything. I'd already cautioned 4 of them including 3 for dissent. Five minutes to go and they're 2-1 ahead. The home team are attacking again. If the away team can hold out they should win the league. I became aware of two players in the middle coming together off the ball. I shouted across to "move away, lads!" But then saw the away defender shove the attacker in the chest before the attacker squared up to him but didn't do much more. I stopped play and penalised the push, which took place on the penalty mark. The away team went ballistic. Apparently the Law says it has to be a dropped ball! The manager's son is a referee! And he told me so! The manager is a nasty piece of work. Don't really know the son, but if he thinks that's a dropped ball he's not a referee! The home team scored the penalty and the away team finished second in the league.
My fault apparently!
 
Markt said:
I had exactly this, and you're right, you usually see the first push. The away team were questioning everything. I'd already cautioned 4 of them including 3 for dissent. Five minutes to go and they're 2-1 ahead. The home team are attacking again. If the away team can hold out they should win the league. I became aware of two players in the middle coming together off the ball. I shouted across to "move away, lads!" But then saw the away defender shove the attacker in the chest before the attacker squared up to him but didn't do much more. I stopped play and penalised the push, which took place on the penalty mark. The away team went ballistic. Apparently the Law says it has to be a dropped ball! The manager's son is a referee! And he told me so! The manager is a nasty piece of work. Don't really know the son, but if he thinks that's a dropped ball he's not a referee! The home team scored the penalty and the away team finished second in the league.
My fault apparently!
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Phew! Brave call that one!!
Are you sure the push warranted giving a season-defining penalty decision, and that it wasn't just the old "handbags at 10 paces" scenario we always see?
Have to be honest, in the circumstances you describe, I'd have been tempted to just dish out a yellow and award an IFK from the spot rather than give the pen. Serves them right for chopsing at you the whole game I suppose. :D
 
Really??? In your book, pushing an opponent is an Indirect Free Kick offence? Which website/ cereal box did you find your copy of the Laws? :eek:

Seriously, how do you justify awarding an indirect free kick for a penal offence????
 
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CapnBloodbeard said:
Really??? In your book, pushing an opponent is an Indirect Free Kick offence? Which website/ cereal box did you find your copy of the Laws? :eek:

Seriously, how do you justify awarding an indirect free kick for a penal offence????
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Same book as everybody else: LOTG pg 38:

An indirect free kick is also awarded to the opposing team if, in the opinion of the referee, a player:
• plays in a dangerous manner
• impedes the progress of an opponent
• prevents the goalkeeper from releasing the ball from his hands
• commits any other offence, not previously mentioned in Law 12, for which play is stopped to caution or send off a player

The indirect free kick is taken from the place where the offence occurred (see Law 13 – Position of free kick).

It all depends on what your interpretation of the "offence" is. Perhaps I'm just a little more preoccupied with overall game management here in God's own country than you are down there in Wallaby Central - I don't know. ;) :D
 
'overall game management'. I can't think of a more polite way to say that, quite frankly, that's the biggest load of codswallop I've ever heard. You're going to award an IFK for a penal foul because you're worried somebody will get upset with you? What on earth do you do when somebody goes down in the box and both teams are screaming at you??? Abandon the match???? If that's your attitude I'd hate to imagine what you would do if a game got difficult!!!

The hilarious irony with this approach is that you're just as likely to upset people by being too afraid to do the job that you're being paid to do than you are by actually doing the right thing. So just do the right thing and stop taking money under false pretenses!!!

So you can quote the law, but do you understand it? As you say, it's for 'commits any other offence not previous mentioned in Law 12'. Given that you can read the LOTG, I presume you noticed where it says that a direct free kick is awarded if a player 'pushes an opponent'? So, where do you get this 'not previously mentioned' business from?

And if you're seriously going to argue that you're not stopping play for the penal foul but for the USB attached the penal foul, then please, go and enrol in the next introductory course you can find. By your logic, penalty kicks simply don't exist. Somebody tell FIFA that they've left some extra unnecessary pages in the book!

I thought I had heard it all when somebody on here tried arguing it's perfectly fine to award a Goal Kick while the ball is clearly in play, but this takes the cake!!!!

Have a bit of a think about what your job on the field actually is, mate.
 
Kes said:
Phew! Brave call that one!!
Are you sure the push warranted giving a season-defining penalty decision, and that it wasn't just the old "handbags at 10 paces" scenario we always see?
Have to be honest, in the circumstances you describe, I'd have been tempted to just dish out a yellow and award an IFK from the spot rather than give the pen. Serves them right for chopsing at you the whole game I suppose. :D
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A bit of context may help. The team were a nightmare, and part of the reason they were in the position (ie could win the league) is that they were always up to this. They got a lot of points because decisions went their way because of intimidation of the Referee. The manager had recently told a female Referee "this is a man's game. You should be in the f***ing kitchen making the tea!" when she had penalised his team. She was intimidated and hadn't reported it. The reason I was on the game in the first place is that I am not put off by this sort of tactic. I'm too stupid to be scared of players!
The push could have been classed as "handbags at 10 paces", but it was a push, with force, in the PA, by a defender against an attacker. If he'd done it to a team mate then an IFK would be right. Against an opponent it's a penalty.

Kes said:
Same book as everybody else: LOTG pg 38:

An indirect free kick is also awarded to the opposing team if, in the opinion of the referee, a player:
• commits any other offence, not previously mentioned in Law 12, for which play is stopped to caution or send off a player
Click to expand...

But the offence is previously mentioned in Law 12, under direct free kick offences!

If it had been you and it had been outside the PA, what restart would you have given then?

For information, this was last season. The club folded in the close season, giving the reasons as player in-fighting and some "unbelievable Refereeing decisions!" I'm glad to have been of service to my fellow Referees!
 
CapnBloodbeard said:
'overall game management'. I can't think of a more polite way to say that, quite frankly, that's the biggest load of codswallop I've ever heard. You're going to award an IFK for a penal foul because you're worried somebody will get upset with you? What on earth do you do when somebody goes down in the box and both teams are screaming at you??? Abandon the match???? If that's your attitude I'd hate to imagine what you would do if a game got difficult!!!

The hilarious irony with this approach is that you're just as likely to upset people by being too afraid to do the job that you're being paid to do than you are by actually doing the right thing. So just do the right thing and stop taking money under false pretenses!!!

So you can quote the law, but do you understand it? As you say, it's for 'commits any other offence not previous mentioned in Law 12'. Given that you can read the LOTG, I presume you noticed where it says that a direct free kick is awarded if a player 'pushes an opponent'? So, where do you get this 'not previously mentioned' business from?

And if you're seriously going to argue that you're not stopping play for the penal foul but for the USB attached the penal foul, then please, go and enrol in the next introductory course you can find. By your logic, penalty kicks simply don't exist. Somebody tell FIFA that they've left some extra unnecessary pages in the book!

I thought I had heard it all when somebody on here tried arguing it's perfectly fine to award a Goal Kick while the ball is clearly in play, but this takes the cake!!!!

Have a bit of a think about what your job on the field actually is, mate.
Click to expand...

I simply stated what I might have been tempted to do given the circumstances. "Handbags at 10 paces" is something we see all the time during grass roots matches. It may amaze you to know this, but there are also footballers out there who use insulting language to each other or what some may consider offensive words when playing, but it doesn't mean they're sent off each time. ;) Direct application of law is (as you rightly allude to) written down in the book, and should be applied in all cases, but as with practically everything else in the book, is prefixed with the words "if, in the opinion of the referee". If I'm the referee, it's my opinion at that moment that counts. You may not like that, but matches have been, and will continue to be refereed in this way for many years. ;)

The rest of your response, I won't rise to since it's a bit rude to be honest fella. :cool:
 
Markt said:
A bit of context may help. The team were a nightmare, and part of the reason they were in the position (ie could win the league) is that they were always up to this. They got a lot of points because decisions went their way because of intimidation of the Referee. The manager had recently told a female Referee "this is a man's game. You should be in the f***ing kitchen making the tea!" when she had penalised his team. She was intimidated and hadn't reported it. The reason I was on the game in the first place is that I am not put off by this sort of tactic. I'm too stupid to be scared of players!
The push could have been classed as "handbags at 10 paces", but it was a push, with force, in the PA, by a defender against an attacker. If he'd done it to a team mate then an IFK would be right. Against an opponent it's a penalty.
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I concede.
You were there mate, and (as has rather forcefully been pointed out to me :rolleyes:) your decision was correct in Law.
I tend to look at things in context a bit too much sometimes perhaps. :D

Rightly or wrongly, there are many occasions where we referee with one eye on the LOTG and one on our opinion at the time or even conscience. A look through the "What constitutes a foul throw?" thread is all the evidence needed...... ;) :)

On this occasion, I shall retire to the subs bench with my head firmly down. :D
 
There's really no context here. Was there a push on the field while the ball was in play?
If so, it's a DFK or PK. There's literally nothing to discuss. This isn't the 'grey' areas of 'match control' of 'at what level of disagreement does it become cautionable' or 'just how hard does a foul need to be for a card?'. You're talking about literally ignoring the LOTG and awarding an IFK for a penal foul. That's inexcusable.

And don't bother with ITOOTR as a response. That's just a copout used to justify doing the wrong thing. If you're going to use that as a response, then what's the point in an assessment, as you could never be scored below 10? ITOOTR also presumes knowledge of the LOTG and correct interpretation and application both within the letter and spirit of the law. It's not an 'I can do whatever I like and you can't criticise me for it' clause.

Forceful push was the operative word. Not one that's at the 'can you even really call that a push?' level, or the push itself was trifling compared to the fact that they're eyeballing each other (which you do see in handbags, more just for the sake of putting one's hands on another's body than actually pushing them', so that's definitely a penal foul. You absolutely cannot invoke the 'for any other reason' clause on a penal foul.
 
Gotta say Kes, you and I have been on the same page on many recent threads ... but not on this one! I'm all for 'managing the game' where it's admissible by Law. this just isn't one of those occasions I'm afraid
 
I don't think you are alone, although you're probably the only one who's going to put his head above the parapet, especially now!

I'm sure the lad who said it was a dropped ball according to the LOTG (the manager's son, who said he was a referee and therefore knew I was wrong!) would have agreed with you - although I wouldn't really trust his opinion! ;)
 
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