The Ref Stop

Advantage on DOGSO

The Ref Stop
I appear to have a different view to that of some contributors. Law states play is to be stopped and after the dismissal play restarts with an ifk. Free kicks are taken from the location of the offence unless otherwise stated.
If an indirect free kick offense occurs in the goal area, then the IDFK occurs from the goal area (six-yard) line closest to where the offense occurred.

I actually had to do this in a game this spring. Ball was deliberately kicked back to the keeper who picked it up inside of the goal area. The ensuing free kick was on the goal area line, and the entire defensive team lined up inside of the goal posts on the goal line as they are allowed to do if the IDFK is within 10 yards of the goal. It was an absolute nightmare to manage, but the attackers were able to convert the free kick into a goal.

I'd still like to see indirect free kicks like this either be from the corner of the penalty area line and the goal line or from the top of the penalty arc. Trying to get 11 players to legally be in position on defense while the attackers want to just barely roll the ball to get it in play is pretty much madness. :)
 
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We not be comfortable having a IDFK here but it seems to me the laws are pretty clear on this one.

The player interferes, stop play, send him off then idfk restart.

Same as other laws we might not like but still follow
 
What was the offence and where was the location?
You don't like this law, but we are there to apply law.
"... but if the player plays the ball or challenges/interferes with an opponent, the referee will stop play, send off the player and restart with an indirect free kick, unless the player committed a more serious offence"
That sentence indicates an offence is committed and the method of restart.
 
I also had a feeling that giving a IFK here is not quite the right thing and not smoothing the law intended and had to dig into it further. With the current wording, IFK is just the restart after the the game is stopped by the referee (not the punishment). Because the game was not stopped by the referee for the player's play involvement, IFK should not apply.

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While the wording requires the referee to stop play, the reason to do it does not apply here and I think it was within the spirit of this law for the referee not to stop play. The change was introduced in 16-17 and the reason behind it clearly does not apply here.

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I don't understand that at all.

The "explanation" seems clear enough - except that when the RC player interfered with play it was too late to stop him from stopping the other team scoring. If he was not there to clear the ball another attacker would have had only the GK to beat - another OGSO.

Given that a DOGSO had not been penalised (and a red card not given) by playing advantage, and they hadn't scored, the least that the attacking team deserved was an IDFK on the edge of the GA.

(Not that I'd have known that.)
 
The correct restart is unclear to me...? As the Law states, "if the player plays the ball or challenges/interferes with an opponent, the referee will stop play, send off the player and restart with an indirect free kick, unless the player committed a more serious offence.". Did the referee stop play? If he did not, the restart is not the IDFK. It's the corner, right? If the Referee would have blown the play dead as soon as he blocked that shot before the ball went out of play, that would have required the IDFK restart. Is my understanding correct? or can the Referee "bring it back" and restart with the IDFK?
 
The correct restart is unclear to me...? As the Law states, "if the player plays the ball or challenges/interferes with an opponent, the referee will stop play, send off the player and restart with an indirect free kick, unless the player committed a more serious offence.". Did the referee stop play? If he did not, the restart is not the IDFK. It's the corner, right? If the Referee would have blown the play dead as soon as he blocked that shot before the ball went out of play, that would have required the IDFK restart. Is my understanding correct? or can the Referee "bring it back" and restart with the IDFK?
The referee didn't stop play and restarted with the TI. However, in law he should have stopped play after the first block/save and awarded the IDFK.
 
The correct restart is unclear to me...? As the Law states, "if the player plays the ball or challenges/interferes with an opponent, the referee will stop play, send off the player and restart with an indirect free kick, unless the player committed a more serious offence.". Did the referee stop play? If he did not, the restart is not the IDFK. It's the corner, right? If the Referee would have blown the play dead as soon as he blocked that shot before the ball went out of play, that would have required the IDFK restart. Is my understanding correct? or can the Referee "bring it back" and restart with the IDFK?
it says the referee will stop play which makes it a requirement to imo. It's not stops play if, or unless, or if the referee stops play, it's a clear singular action to take.

The only way I see play continuing is in an advantage situation, ie the interference or play creates an advantage.
 
it says the referee will stop play which makes it a requirement to imo. It's not stops play if, or unless, or if the referee stops play, it's a clear singular action to take.

The only way I see play continuing is in an advantage situation, ie the interference or play creates an advantage.
If it's not an offence can you play advantage? 😁
 
You don't like this law, but we are there to apply law.
"... but if the player plays the ball or challenges/interferes with an opponent, the referee will stop play, send off the player and restart with an indirect free kick, unless the player committed a more serious offence"
That sentence indicates an offence is committed and the method of restart.
While I understand how you are parsing that, I'm not convinced that is what IFAB was trying to say. Alas, they are so consistently imprecise in their language, Lewis Carroll's head would spin.* I don't think they meant to imply that the interference was itself an "offense," but simply to mean that if the player commits a DFK foul, then the restart would be a DFK. It really doesn't make sense to say it is an "offense" for a player to play the game when the player hasn't been sent off--and may not even know he will be. But I can't argue with your linguistic interpretation. And more often than not, the restart is going to work fine, as the IFK is often a relatively innocuous restart. (I can't promise that, at the level of games I do, I wouldn't find an alternative "interpretation" if I felt that IFK was going to be fundamentally unfair.)

___________
*"'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.'"
--Alice in Wonderland
 
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I think this is pretty black and white, we might not like the law, and IFAB probably didn't think of the potential consequences, but it can't really be more clear that if the player touches the ball or challenges / interferes with an opponent the referee stops play and restarts with an IDFK. It doesn't say can stop play, it says will stop play, there really is no wiggle room here.

Perhaps we could be proactive if this happens. We see in the video that the referee points at the player after the advantage, and has presumably told him he is getting sent off. That might be a good opportunity to also say "if you touch the ball or get involved in play I'll have to stop play and give the other team a free kick where it happened".
 
Perhaps we could be proactive if this happens. We see in the video that the referee points at the player after the advantage, and has presumably told him he is getting sent off. That might be a good opportunity to also say "if you touch the ball or get involved in play I'll have to stop play and give the other team a free kick where it happened".
Yeah, in theory, perhaps, but since the only time that we are supposed to play advantage on a send off is if there is an immediate goal scoring opportunity, it seems unlikely that we have the opportunity to say something that complex. And if we just say something as simple as "we'll be coming back with the red" may make the player think he might as well do something stupid with nothing left to lose. (And in the real world, this is such a rare scenario, expecting that we will think that through so thoroughly in the heat of the moment is pretty unrealistic.)

And if I ever play advantage on a send off and it doesn't result in an immediate goal, I'm certainly going to be looking for any plausible excuse to stop play ASAP to deal with it. I also think this whole discussion is a bit of a practical learning--we only want to play that advantage on a send off if there is a really good chance of a goal. Otherwise, both the potential for a flare up involving the player and these weird scenarios dictate not taking the risk and simply whistling the foul and giving the send off.
 
Yeah, in theory, perhaps, but since the only time that we are supposed to play advantage on a send off is if there is an immediate goal scoring opportunity, it seems unlikely that we have the opportunity to say something that complex. And if we just say something as simple as "we'll be coming back with the red" may make the player think he might as well do something stupid with nothing left to lose. (And in the real world, this is such a rare scenario, expecting that we will think that through so thoroughly in the heat of the moment is pretty unrealistic.)

And if I ever play advantage on a send off and it doesn't result in an immediate goal, I'm certainly going to be looking for any plausible excuse to stop play ASAP to deal with it. I also think this whole discussion is a bit of a practical learning--we only want to play that advantage on a send off if there is a really good chance of a goal. Otherwise, both the potential for a flare up involving the player and these weird scenarios dictate not taking the risk and simply whistling the foul and giving the send off.
Time to amend the law. If the referee can stop play for a serious injury why not stop play to send off the offender before he gets the chance to interfere with play? In theory, it could be up to 45 minutes before the ball goes out of play (and in reality, could easily be 5 minutes if you watch Pepball). Just say, "If the anticipated advantage does not ensue at that time or within a few seconds, the referee will stop play, send off the player and restart play with a dropped ball in accordance with law 8, unless a more serious offence has since been committed". (E.g. the player on a RC commits another foul - or someone commits a retaliatory offence against the player waiting to be sent off.) Tricky to get the wording right, but there needs to be discretion to stop play sooner than as presently worded.
 
While I understand how you are parsing that, I'm not convinced that is what IFAB was trying to say. Alas, they are so consistently imprecise in their language, Lewis Carroll's head would spin.* I don't think they meant to imply that the interference was itself an "offense," but simply to mean that if the player commits a DFK foul, then the restart would be a DFK. It really doesn't make sense to say it is an "offense" for a player to play the game when the player hasn't been sent off--and may not even know he will be. But I can't argue with your linguistic interpretation. And more often than not, the restart is going to work fine, as the IFK is often a relatively innocuous restart. (I can't promise that, at the level of games I do, I wouldn't find an alternative "interpretation" if I felt that IFK was going to be fundamentally unfair.)

___________
*"'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.'"
--Alice in Wonderland

Thanks for saving me some typing. Yes the wording is "somewhat clear" for what it was intended (as my post for the explaining of when the change was made). The concept to be used in all different ways this could happen is not clear at all.

Clearly if they hadn't used the "unless more serious offence" here, the defender could have handled the ball in OP and it would have been IFK restart. They tried to cover that without realizing it would imply a legitimate play of the ball in everyone's eyes now becomes an offence.

This topic is doing my head in. I think I am getting old. Or am I I already old?
 
Thanks for saving me some typing. Yes the wording is "somewhat clear" for what it was intended (as my post for the explaining of when the change was made). The concept to be used in all different ways this could happen is not clear at all.

Clearly if they hadn't used the "unless more serious offence" here, the defender could have handled the ball in OP and it would have been IFK restart. They tried to cover that without realizing it would imply a legitimate play of the ball in everyone's eyes now becomes an offence.

This topic is doing my head in. I think I am getting old. Or am I I already old?
Compared to some of the stuff in the law that's implicit (or ambiguous), this is nowt. It's just shorthand for "unless an offence has been committed that warrants a more serious sanction than an IDFK".

(Don't worry about getting old. Like learning a new language, trying to keep up with IFAB is the sort of thing that's good for staving off dementia.

As for short term memory loss, like learning a new language, trying to keep up with IFAB is the sort of thing that's good for staving off dementia.)
 
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Thanks for saving me some typing. Yes the wording is "somewhat clear" for what it was intended (as my post for the explaining of when the change was made). The concept to be used in all different ways this could happen is not clear at all.

Clearly if they hadn't used the "unless more serious offence" here, the defender could have handled the ball in OP and it would have been IFK restart. They tried to cover that without realizing it would imply a legitimate play of the ball in everyone's eyes now becomes an offence.

This topic is doing my head in. I think I am getting old. Or am I I already old?
I think that's 100% the takeaway from this discussion. Deliberately or not, IFAB have effectively created "playing the ball after the ref has deemed you are due to be sent off" as an IFK offence.

If we accept that, it fits into our existing framework quite neatly - it's just irritating that it has to be inferred rather than read explicitly.
 
- it's just irritating that it has to be inferred rather than read explicitly.
Yes but for me not as much as two other points. If this is the case then any player with a chance of playing the ball legitimately has to guess now, was the challenge I made two minutes ago a yellow card or red card challenge? And Knowing ifab I am confident they did not mean to make this an offence for the reason above.
 
I think you're overestimating how often this will come up. 99% of red cards will just be routine "stop play, send off" red cards, my stats show a red card about every 2.5 games. So I think you could easily go 250+ games without ever having a red card lead to such an obvious advantage that you must play on, and what proportion of those will even lead to the ball remaining in play rather than either going into the goal or directly out of play?

I'm not saying it isn't a little untidy, but it's such a rare event that any player modifying their behaviour because of it is being wildly over-cautious.
 
Law 13. Types of free kick
Direct and indirect free kicks are awarded to the opposing team of a player,
substitute, substituted or sent-off player, or team official guilty of an offence.

Free Kicks are only awarded after offences.

Intentionally, or not, the law states that interfering with play or playing the ball after committing a red card offence is an offence. Otherwise, the restart could not be a free kick.
 
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