Witnessing a Sending Off when An assistant

Hi Guys, this happened recently, but I didn't post at the time as I wasn't sure. It's still eating away at me so I'm asking for advice.

Competitive local Derby youth game. Blue and a yellow player are contesting a ball rolling out of play. I'm on the line around 15 yards away and ref is level with incident also around 15 yards away. So we both have a different view of it.

As they fall over off the field of play a tangle ensued. I saw blue kick out at yellow. Ref is right now on top of it.

Big blast of the whistle and in he goes. Now this is where I expected him to come and have a chat with me about the incident and ask what i saw.

He doesn't instead he told the yellow player (who I didn't see do anything wrong from my angle) to wait there. And then he calls over the blue player and issues a caution. I'm thinking now if I get involved I am going to make him look a right mug so I didn't do anything. Then he calls the yellow player over. I'm thinking yellow a piece he's decided on.

WRONG! He shows him a straight red.

So after the match he asks me did I get the sending off right? I said what did he do? He said he threw a punch at him. I said well I couldn't see that from my angle but good call then. I then went on to say that I expected him to come over and chat with me first because blue should have walked also and explained why. He said he hadn't seen that kick out and that I should have told him at the time.

So, what SHOULD I have done at the time without making him look like a mug? I've always been told you backup your colleagues and don't undermine them. I'm still learning as an assistant ref you see.

PS - This referee is a level 5.

If your using buzzers buzz him with a hand gesture tell him to come to you and have a chat or without buzzers flag up and wave it a bit shout his name call him over have a chat.

I'm assuming you were an appointed NAR on the game, rather than a CAR, right?

As above, if you have use of buzzers in that situation, hold it down until the ref's arm falls off!
If not using buzzers, raise your flag before he starts to discipline and take 1/2 steps onto FOP. You've seen a clear red card offence that you want to ensure the referee is made aware of. If you'd not seen any RC offences, I see no reason to get involved. But you did, so you should have done so. Equally, any ref worth their salt use the NAR available to them and call them over to ask them what they've seen and then see if it compares to their thoughts.

Finally, why on earth is a L5 official dealing with th YC offence first?! @Brian Hamilton @lincs22, has the assessment directive changed since I stopped? Always was reds first, then yellows.

@DanCohen17 In practice, if the situation has calmed itself, then the order of cards doesn't really matter, and sometimes the caution first will calm things sufficiently, rather than potentially exacerbating the situation further with a red shown, and it can happen that people are so focused on that, that they don't see the followup caution.

In a mass confrontation? Reds first every time, no matter what.

Did you agitate your flag, in these situations where you have seen something the ref could not have seen give the flag a real violent wave. The ref should then come over before he starts dishing out the punishments. If he doesn't then it is on his head, and if there is an assessor then his marks will suffer.

It also depends on the pre match brief- did he talk about fouls and credibility zones?

I think you should have flagged for the foul when you saw it. I understand why you maybe didn't - clearly you thought by the volume of the whistle that he'd seen the kick and was going to deal with it.

But in theory, you should be at least backing up his whistles in the case of a red card offence in your credibility zone. It will add credibility to the referees decision if your flagging implies you've seen it and will also remind the referee to come and have a word with you, even if it's only to confirm you've seen the same thing.

Once this misunderstanding has taken place, you've still got the option of flagging the ref over and having a chat. As far as you know at the time, it could be that he's seen the kick and decided it's only a yellow - in which case, that's his call and no problem. Or it could be he hasn't seen the kick at all - in which case, it's still his call if he wants to go back and "upgrade" the card, or just carry on. You should try hard to give him as much information and help as possible, but then not try and force a course of action on him.

@DanCohen17 Red then yellow just as it should be away then home if dismissing both.

@GraemeS has it right though. As an AR you provide information and it's up to the referee to decide what to do. Doesn't make it easy to swallow if he ignores your information, but that's all you can do.

You say the ball was heading out of play and I assume you are with the last defender and not heading towards the incident? Personally, wave the flag shout at the referee and tell him what you saw! Never assume the referee has seen it especially as he will have a different view, maybe a question for your pre-match chat with the referee?

TBF to Andy, actions of referee lead him to believe that he (the ref) had seen the incident.

After yellow has been issued by ref, who to everyone else DID have a clear view of incident, its difficult for AR to then step in & effectivly upgrade that to a red.

Instructions I've received for mass con. from referees has always been that they will issue any "obvious"red cards first, THEN they will have a chat with assistant(s) and then issue any further reds,then yellows.

PinnerPaul said:

TBF to Andy, actions of referee lead him to believe that he (the ref) had seen the incident.

After yellow has been issued by ref, who to everyone else DID have a clear view of incident, its difficult for AR to then step in & effectivly upgrade that to a red.

Instructions I've received for mass con. from referees has always been that they will issue any "obvious"red cards first, THEN they will have a chat with assistant(s) and then issue any further reds,then yellows.

Click to expand...

Absolutely correct Paul and it therefore becomes something to be raised at HT or FT. If raised before then, the AR appears insistent

interesting, as I've ALWAYS been told by refs, that in the event of Mass Con - we'll let it settle, get the teams in their own halves, come together as a 3 and discuss, he then sends us to a respective touchline - then he does red, yellows and finally warnings (which are quite doubtful if Mass Con happens and reds/yellows are being shown) - the reasons I find is that the players then don't know what official has seen/said what - and its all done in a nice smooth manor.

Essex FA assessors have always liked what the ref has said regards this - (not going against you @Brian Hamilton, just what ive seen/told)

regards the incident ...

a) Yes, its not great for the ref to not be speaking with you - although it is worse when the ref asks you, and then disregards what you said! but hey ho

b) as others have said ... working on no buzzers, raise the flag and agitate it whilst doing the 'come to me' hand gesture - keep it all nice and calm also, don't want the players or ref to think your getting caught up in the moment. remember a calmer ref is an in control ref ...

side note @GraemeS ... when you do the quick red card before speaking to AR's, do you also give a little 'Mike Dean, no looking' card - you know the, as your walking past the player, quick red and don't even acknowledge him?

Thanks for the pointers everybody.

Next time a situation like this arises I will know for sure what I should do.

I got caught up in the moment to be honest and fully expected the ref to consult me first (as they had done on a few occasions in previous matches) but when he didn't consult I was wondering what the hell I should be doing.

Brian Hamilton said:

@DanCohen17 Red then yellow just as it should be away then home if dismissing both.

Click to expand...

Charlie Jones said:

interesting, as I've ALWAYS been told by refs, that in the event of Mass Con - we'll let it settle, get the teams in their own halves, come together as a 3 and discuss, he then sends us to a respective touchline - then he does red, yellows and finally warnings (which are quite doubtful if Mass Con happens and reds/yellows are being shown) - the reasons I find is that the players then don't know what official has seen/said what - and its all done in a nice smooth manor.

Essex FA assessors have always liked what the ref has said regards this - (not going against you @Brian Hamilton, just what ive seen/told)

Click to expand...

Unless I'm reading this wrong, aren't you essentially saying exactly as Brian said, just with a bit more added?

Always should be red (A then H) followed by yellow.

DanCohen17 said:

Unless I'm reading this wrong, aren't you essentially saying exactly as Brian said, just with a bit more added?

Always should be red (A then H) followed by yellow.

Click to expand...

He can't help himself Dan

Andy A said:

Thanks for the pointers everybody.

Next time a situation like this arises I will know for sure what I should do.

I got caught up in the moment to be honest and fully expected the ref to consult me first (as they had done on a few occasions in previous matches) but when he didn't consult I was wondering what the hell I should be doing.

Click to expand...

the next time you are appointed as a nar if the ref doesnt cover exactly that in their prematch brief as him/her what do you want me to do if.

DanCohen17 said:

Unless I'm reading this wrong, aren't you essentially saying exactly as Brian said, just with a bit more added?

Always should be red (A then H) followed by yellow.

Click to expand...

no no, sorry ... I was referring to @PinnerPaul when he said that he has always been told by the ref that he will deal with obvious reds first, and then come together and discuss ... up until, funnily enough, the Saturday just gone, I was always told by the ref that, he'll let it all calm down, discuss, then issue cards etc ... no quick reds first

Charlie Jones said:

no no, sorry ... I was referring to @PinnerPaul when he said that he has always been told by the ref that he will deal with obvious reds first, and then come together and discuss ... up until, funnily enough, the Saturday just gone, I was always told by the ref that, he'll let it all calm down, discuss, then issue cards etc ... no quick reds first

Click to expand...

Think the logic is that if two players have been having a fight, especially in a mass confrontation situation, its not really feasible to expect them (and everyone else) to stand around behaving themselves while the referee and ARs have a conflab!

Best to get rid of them, make sure everyone else has calmed down, THEN have a chat.

ohh no, I do understand - just thought it was funny as id always been told different ... as I say up until Saturday when ironically enough I was told your way!