In other words, we would end up in the showers in jail, looking for the soap...?
In or Out?
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Kes
I'll Decide ...
Without wanting to sound like a t**t or worse a smart arse, 3.5 years of intense academic study.How do we break the stranglehold? Trying would be a good start.
Okay, in your own words, explain how we "try" when there is:
1. No mechanism to be able to do so (see previous posts)
2. No political will to do so.
That's the whole point!!
What worries me is some of the nonsense being spouted by politicians that some people will believe when it comes to voting.
For example, the Brexit line of leaving would benefit the NHS by £100 million per week. They are basing that on the money we currently pay to the EU, but at the same time are quoting Norway as a county who aren't in the EU who we could follow. Which doesn't add up as Norway have to pay a lot of money to joint the EEA, as opposed to the EU, and the UK would have to pay similar amounts to get the trade agreements that Norway get. So the figures that are being quoted as going to the NHS will be nowhere like those stated, if anything at all.
Bizarrely they also seem to be quoting Norway as a way of staying out to protect your borders, yet Norway have as high or even higher immigration than the UK over recent years. Indeed, unlike the UK, Norway are a member of the Schengen area so allow EU passport holders to enter their country without passing through immigration control. Something that we don't as the UK are not a member of Schengen.
Interesting article from Norway here ...
https://www.regjeringen.no/no/aktuelt/brexit_norway/id2402031/
For example, the Brexit line of leaving would benefit the NHS by £100 million per week. They are basing that on the money we currently pay to the EU, but at the same time are quoting Norway as a county who aren't in the EU who we could follow. Which doesn't add up as Norway have to pay a lot of money to joint the EEA, as opposed to the EU, and the UK would have to pay similar amounts to get the trade agreements that Norway get. So the figures that are being quoted as going to the NHS will be nowhere like those stated, if anything at all.
Bizarrely they also seem to be quoting Norway as a way of staying out to protect your borders, yet Norway have as high or even higher immigration than the UK over recent years. Indeed, unlike the UK, Norway are a member of the Schengen area so allow EU passport holders to enter their country without passing through immigration control. Something that we don't as the UK are not a member of Schengen.
Interesting article from Norway here ...
https://www.regjeringen.no/no/aktuelt/brexit_norway/id2402031/
Kes
I'll Decide ...
HertsFinest
Next Weeks Ref
Ahh the left wing. Resorting to name calling because others disagree with them.
Then again I'm just a feeble minded (racist?) little Englander
Then again I'm just a feeble minded (racist?) little Englander
CapnBloodbeard
RefChat Addict
yes, because only one particular political persuasion does that..../facepalm
Seemed a little bit of name calling went on the other day. Who did that? Oh yes it was Mr the peas are very green today dearAhh the left wing. Resorting to name calling because others disagree with them.
Then again I'm just a feeble minded (racist?) little Englander
Charlie Jones
Work Until You Don't Have To Introduce Yourself
why does everyone seem to be jumping on the race band wagon?
its not a question of race ... its perfectly acceptable to be a nationalist and want the best for Britain and the British ... its only racist when skin colour is mentioned, you can be any colour and still be British - and so far - I don't think anyone has mentioned the colour of people? just where they are from or religious back ground? (lets not forget Christianity is the religion of the land and as such all other religions are not deemed .British')
its not a question of race ... its perfectly acceptable to be a nationalist and want the best for Britain and the British ... its only racist when skin colour is mentioned, you can be any colour and still be British - and so far - I don't think anyone has mentioned the colour of people? just where they are from or religious back ground? (lets not forget Christianity is the religion of the land and as such all other religions are not deemed .British')
Except, as per a very recent report, the majority of people - in England at least - have no religion, pushing Christians in to second place. But the point is still relatively valid.
Charlie Jones
Work Until You Don't Have To Introduce Yourself
its very valid, the religion of the land will never change ...
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Kes
I'll Decide ...
Explain how please.
The "religion" of a country is shaped by the majority of it's population surely?
Once the demographic begins to change (which it already has) what follows is obvious.
You've only got to visit Tower Hamlets, Leicestershire, parts of Manchester, Birmingham etc to see what has happened.
Rocket science it ain't......
Charlie Jones
Work Until You Don't Have To Introduce Yourself
no, that's just the popular religion in the country ...
the religion of the land is what it was founded on - Christianity, like Australia, America etc
plus as @xPositor rightly said ... there are now more non religious people in the UK (guarantee though that over half are baptised, which makes them Christian), which Christians sitting second ...
the religion of the land is what it was founded on - Christianity, like Australia, America etc
plus as @xPositor rightly said ... there are now more non religious people in the UK (guarantee though that over half are baptised, which makes them Christian), which Christians sitting second ...
NO, no, no, no. You cannot define a person's religion based upon what happened to them when they were 6 months old. It is what you believe/practice now. For Christians, this number ought to be based upon people who have been confirmed, not baptised - as baptism (or its equivalent in any religion, particularly when young) is simply a reflection of the parents' religion.
But this is a Stay / Leave debate. So I'll leave the religion discussion here.
Back on topic...
Charlie Jones
Work Until You Don't Have To Introduce Yourself
quite right ... back on topic ...
also, apoligies, I meant 'technically' as in the eyes of the church would say you were Christian ... im a perfect example, christened - but would say I kind of wobble on the agnostic scale
also, apoligies, I meant 'technically' as in the eyes of the church would say you were Christian ... im a perfect example, christened - but would say I kind of wobble on the agnostic scale
I'll take things off topic for a while by making a point that's been rolling around inside my head for a few days.
Much of the fuss and nonsense in this debate which has been played out in the media makes reference to what is perceived as an Islamification (is that a word?) of countries by the expansion/conversion of the people who live in countries where Islam is the dominant religion. Isn't that just the same as when Christianity rolled into town and challenged/wiped out the old gods of the populace 2000 years ago?
The whole old god(s)/new god(s) argument has been used to kill millions for the last 10,000 years since man first hid from thunder storms and talked to trees. Not saying it's right, but I thought I'd make the point. Also it's insanity to keep doing the same thing over and over and expect a different result. Maybe all religion should be outlawed?
Now back on topic or at least a point that Charlie mentioned... racism and the relationship with skin colour.
OED defines it as
The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races: theories of racism.
No mention of skin colour there old bean. In fact as a person from a minority ethnic group ridiculed through puerile humour for hundreds of years, I'm pretty sure my skin colour is very similar if not the same as many others in this group, but I've been subject to racism.
Enjoy your summer people. If anyone is heading to the Paris World Cup in 3 weeks, I'll see you there. A lot of French people have the same colour skin as many users in this group too and if you insult them based on their being French, that's racist too.
Kes
I'll Decide ...
No it isn't.
There are islamic countries today that were originally founded on christianity and vice versa. The Islamic republic of ****stan used to be predominantly Buddhists and Hindus.
To confidently say that the UK will always be christian is naive to say the least Charlie. The Muslim population has more or less doubled every 5 years since 1980.
Kes
I'll Decide ...
Correct.
Islam, as a religion is about where christianity was circa 500 years ago. But what point are you making?
Are you suggesting that because christians persecuted and colonized societies 600 years ago that we in modern times should be happy and grateful that Islam is now doing the same as well? Christianity and it's followers moved on and developed into civilised and democratic nations mate. What has ancient history got to do with us anyway?
To be honest mate, that's the sort of approach that some hand-wringing apologist takes when fawning over foreign cultures. You might as well start apologising for the slave trade as well Brian!!
You don't actually have a point.
Being an atheist, I tend to think that people who believe in "Sky Fairies" are a bit mad anyway,
but given a choice between living in a country where religion or faith is a personal and individual choice, and residing in one where it's a way of life and actively involves itself in national politics, law and education - I know which one I'd pick mate!! 
Padfoot
The Persecuted One
Correct.
Islam, as a religion is about where christianity was circa 500 years ago. But what point are you making?
Are you suggesting that because christians persecuted and colonized societies 600 years ago that we in modern times should be happy and grateful that Islam is now doing the same as well? Christianity and it's followers moved on and developed into civilised and democratic nations mate. What has ancient history got to do with us anyway?
To be honest mate, that's the sort of approach that some hand-wringing apologist takes when fawning over foreign cultures. You might as well start apologising for the slave trade as well Brian!!
You don't actually have a point.
Being an atheist, I tend to think that people who believe in "Sky Fairies" are a bit mad anyway,
Don't you believe that there should be an apology for the slave trade?
RefereeingBooks
Active Member
There were about 500,000 Muslims in the UK in 1980 (source: Wikipedia). If that population had doubled every 5 years since, there would now have been 128 million Muslims in the UK. Please do your math.No it isn't.
There are islamic countries today that were originally founded on christianity and vice versa. The Islamic republic of ****stan used to be predominantly Buddhists and Hindus.
To confidently say that the UK will always be christian is naive to say the least Charlie. The Muslim population has more or less doubled every 5 years since 1980.
Also, when it declared independence, ****stan was already a predominantly Muslim-based society, which is exactly why it sought independence from India.
I suggest that you base your arguments on actual facts rather than assumptions.
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