The Ref Stop

Aston Villa v Newcastle

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We (royal we) have turned refereeing at the top level into a science - it cannot be refereed robotically.

Every stakeholder within the game needs to lower their expectations in order for VAR (and refereeing) to succeed - we cannot achieve perfection, ever, we'll never have perfect laws and never have a perfect VAR process, but it should be significantly changed to make it easier/better for the referees operating it to do a consistently good job, and for the enjoyment of fans as well
 
The Ref Stop
Dump it and come back in a few years when the technology is sorted.
That's what they did in NFL.

Factual decisions. Offside position, ball jn and out of play and inside-outside the penalty area
At the moment we've got offside technology using mannequins.


We're going the other way and will end up with VAR for everything.
Fans have a hard enough time agreeing with reds; what's that going to look like when it's introduced for second yellows?
What will happen is IFAB Will start introducing criteria for SPA so it fits in with VAR usage.

The controversies this weekend have just been poor refereeing.
 
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es1 said:
We (royal we) have turned refereeing at the top level into a science - it cannot be refereed robotically.

Every stakeholder within the game needs to lower their expectations in order for VAR (and refereeing) to succeed - we cannot achieve perfection, ever, we'll never have perfect laws and never have a perfect VAR process, but it should be significantly changed to make it easier/better for the referees operating it to do a consistently good job, and for the enjoyment of fans as well
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We've had it a long time now. Notwithstanding the factual stuff, like offside (I think that's a separate debate).... I'd argue the 'change it camp' are delusional. Change merely just translates to tinkering with the the level at which VAR should intervene. The PGMOL already intervene a huge amount less that they do elsewhere in Europe. Besides, the 'level of the bar' is subjective, so subjectivity is only being tinkered with on a subjective basis. It will never work, it will only ever focus attention on the referees and increase controversy. It's no doubt too late anyway, the cats out the bag now and the debacle is never going anywhere, even if the Clubs somehow got rid of it... which they won't anyway
We already have the top man for the job, the argument 'it's the people that run it, not the technology', is uninformed and spouted by those who've never refereed a game. It's all completely fooked up

Back to the OP though, at some point in time CK was a promising referee. Somewhere along the line, VAR, relentless guidance, safe refereeing, the questionable pursuit for consistency (consistently bad as it turns out), that potential is rarely or never realized. I see something a bit different in Anthony Taylor from time to time, but the rest of them are swimming upstream, a stream and a challenge not of their making, in my opinion

I'm refereeing well this season. I can't be promoted because I do my own thing. I approach the game in ways that work uniquely for me and I've stopped paying too much attention to observer reports and scores. I'm lucky. Because I'm 52 this year with no remaining ambition, I don't need to conform with what they get taught on CORE. The EPL refs are privileged, but they're not in fortunate to be in my position. I bet some of them wish they were
 
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I do think people's dislike for VAR do cloud their judgement though and the stats do prove accuracy goes up to around 98%, I think it also improves player behaviour around the referees because they know a wrong decision usually turns into a correct one or the players accept the decision more if VAR confirms it.

I remember a game last year with Arsenal and Man United and a dubious penalty was awarded and the United players were furious with the ref because they know it won't be overturned and the ref is more likely to lose control when that happens.

If Newcastle didn't score right from the free kick, Kavanagh could of faced the situation where he could lose control.

It will be a huge backwards step if VAR gets scrapped and wrong factual decisions in particular can't be put right.
 
I don't understand the argument that Kav's undoubtedly bad day at the office on Saturday is an argument that referees have become too reliant on VAR. I believe VAR has 1 intervention every 6 games on average (I don't have facts to back that up but it's what I've been told by someone who operates as VAR). This game / performance was just an anomaly, not an example to prove any argument.
 
RefereeX said:
I don't understand the argument that Kav's undoubtedly bad day at the office on Saturday is an argument that referees have become too reliant on VAR. I believe VAR has 1 intervention every 6 games on average (I don't have facts to back that up but it's what I've been told by someone who operates as VAR). This game / performance was just an anomaly, not an example to prove any argument.
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Graham Scott described it very well I thought today. He refuted the argument that referees have become reliant on VAR to actually make decisions, but said the lack of VAR might well affect their mental fortitude. Pre-VAR if you made a mistake you just had to put it to the back of your mind, often easier said than done, but you knew you had made a mistake and no one was bailing you out so you just had to get on with it as best you could. Whereas with VAR whilst you are annoyed if you make a mistake, you at least know it hasn't affected the game because it has been corrected. So when VAR is taken away from them and they know they have dropped a clanger they have to go back to the old method of trying to forget about it, and perhaps that "skill" isn't as strong as it used to be.

Something I know from having officiated several televised games, albeit mainly as 4th official, there will have been a queue of people lining up to tell the officials they had dropped two clangers as they walked back in at half time. Aside from managers and coaches who will have seen the replays, the TV floor manager and director were always quick to tell the officials if they had messed up. Obviously that wouldn't (or at least shouldn't) happen when VAR is being used. I've watched Chris Kavanagh referee a lot of games and have never seen him appear flustered like he looked at the weekend, so perhaps they have forgotten how to deal with adversity because of VAR.
 
RustyRef said:
Graham Scott described it very well I thought today. He refuted the argument that referees have become reliant on VAR to actually make decisions, but said the lack of VAR might well affect their mental fortitude. Pre-VAR if you made a mistake you just had to put it to the back of your mind, often easier said than done, but you knew you had made a mistake and no one was bailing you out so you just had to get on with it as best you could. Whereas with VAR whilst you are annoyed if you make a mistake, you at least know it hasn't affected the game because it has been corrected. So when VAR is taken away from them and they know they have dropped a clanger they have to go back to the old method of trying to forget about it, and perhaps that "skill" isn't as strong as it used to be.

Something I know from having officiated several televised games, albeit mainly as 4th official, there will have been a queue of people lining up to tell the officials they had dropped two clangers as they walked back in at half time. Aside from managers and coaches who will have seen the replays, the TV floor manager and director were always quick to tell the officials if they had messed up. Obviously that wouldn't (or at least shouldn't) happen when VAR is being used. I've watched Chris Kavanagh referee a lot of games and have never seen him appear flustered like he looked at the weekend, so perhaps they have forgotten how to deal with adversity because of VAR.
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Graham Scott comes across very well in everything I have read from him, unlike a certain KH who has torn into Chris K and his colleagues and almost advocating for Howard W to go. He is most unsupporting of PL officials, which does frustrate me because you only have to watch Big Match Revisited to see that whilst Referees were respected more then than now, many decisions are not made from credible positions but accepted by players. Their credibility was helped by the fact of no social media and only a few cameras rather than 30!!
 
From the bits I seen of Graham Scott on social media, he certainly seems to articulate his points well(like disputing the theory VAR has made referees afraid of making big decisions) but not afraid to be critical when it needs to be. Seems to strike the right balance of not just defending the officials most of the time(Gallagher) or going the other way and be ultra critical of every single referee mistake(Halsey).

Looks like Kavanagh and his assistant has been dropped from this weekend games albeit Nick Greenhalgh will be running the line in the Championship.

Chris Kavanagh will be back though, in general he's a very good referee from what I can see and finally getting the recognition he deserves from UEFA. It's ashame this mistake will probably be always attached to him for the rest of his career though.
 
Paul_10 said:
From the bits I seen of Graham Scott on social media, he certainly seems to articulate his points well(like disputing the theory VAR has made referees afraid of making big decisions) but not afraid to be critical when it needs to be. Seems to strike the right balance of not just defending the officials most of the time(Gallagher) or going the other way and be ultra critical of every single referee mistake(Halsey).

Looks like Kavanagh and his assistant has been dropped from this weekend games albeit Nick Greenhalgh will be running the line in the Championship.

Chris Kavanagh will be back though, in general he's a very good referee from what I can see and finally getting the recognition he deserves from UEFA. It's ashame this mistake will probably be always attached to him for the rest of his career though.
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Had Newcastle lost it probably would have stuck around for years, but as they didn't and the mistakes didn't affect the outcome of the game I'm pretty sure the only people talking about it in a few weeks' time will be us referees.
 
I actually met Graham Scott last week and he comes across as one of the most intelligent people I’ve met in football.
He actually said ‘I’ve now left PGMO so I’m able to be open and honest with any questions you have, and I left amicably, so I’m not bitter and twisted like maybe 1 or 2 others’.
No prizes for guessing who that’s aimed at, but what a top bloke.
 
RustyRef said:
Had Newcastle lost it probably would have stuck around for years, but as they didn't and the mistakes didn't affect the outcome of the game I'm pretty sure the only people talking about it in a few weeks' time will be us referees.
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Big cup tie on prime time TV involving two decent size clubs and a referee makes a mistake like that won't be forgotten about in a few weeks time. Of course time moves on and there could be another incident which actually involves VAR which means that will be the story instead again.

Im still baffled how in a weekend without VAR, it is being used as a factor for a referees performance, if quite a fair number of SG1 refs had really poor games then maybe but this is the only game there was any real controversy involving the referee.
 
one said:
A DOGSO consideration used in futsal laws of the game that I would like to see in footbal LOTG is for is "if goal is being guarded" at the time of the foul. Basically the goalkeeper being inside the PA AND in the triangle of ball and goalposts.
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(Hmm.. slight issue here is futsal DOGSO law means that a foul by the last defender is not DOGSO if the goal is guarded 😱 and we don’t want that in big football!)
 
santa sangria said:
(Hmm.. slight issue here is futsal DOGSO law means that a foul by the last defender is not DOGSO if the goal is guarded 😱 and we don’t want that in big football!)
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It is only a consideration😊. There has been some recent changes. Futsal law (25/26) also includes: "However, the goal being guarded does not mean that a DOGSO offence cannot be committed, and the goal being unguarded does not mean that every offence is DOGSO."
 
one said:
It is only a consideration😊. There has been some recent changes. Futsal law (25/26) also includes: "However, the goal being guarded does not mean that a DOGSO offence cannot be committed, and the goal being unguarded does not mean that every offence is DOGSO."
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I think our other readers have probably switched off by this point! (I did 4 quite serious futsals last weekend. Had great colleagues for each- makes such a difference - two refs anyone???)
 
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santa sangria said:
I think our other readers have probably switched off by this point! (I did 4 quite serious futsals last weekend. Had great colleagues for each- makes such a difference - two refs anyone???)
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I would like to see a 4 referee trial with no AR for football. 2 refs for each half with lead referee in each hlaf to position for and directly responsible for what the AR helps referees with now (and also everythings else a referee does). I think with the width of the football field it needs a bit of trial and error on positioning but it will work well. Play should never be more than 20-25m away from a referee but idealy 15m.

Edit: the referees to run along side / parallell to the side line on the outside of play.
 
one said:
I would like to see a 4 referee trial with no AR for football. 2 refs for each half with lead referee in each hlaf to position for and directly responsible for what the AR helps referees with now (and also everythings else a referee does). I think with the width of the football field it needs a bit of trial and error on positioning but it will work well. Play should never be more than 20-25m away from a referee but idealy 15m.

Edit: the referees to run along side / parallell to the side line on the outside of play.
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It’s a blue sky idea & may be helpful for there to be a few trails, but I can not see a time when this would ever be introduced with the general shortage of Referees in the game. Presumably, you are not thinking of having difference systems in place for different levels of football?
 
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