The Ref Stop

Everton vs Wolves

Donate to RefChat

Help keep RefChat running, any donation would be appreciated

Gabriel

Gabriel

RefChat Addict
Level 7 Referee
Must say, a huge well done to Tom Kirk. Thought he had a brilliant game and it was only his 2nd PL middle. Good to see a second caution for dissent to Grealish as well. I think on some occasions that may have been 'managed' instead (especially with Everton already down to 10 before this). Fair play.
 
The Ref Stop
I’m biased as a WWFC fan, but he had a good game.

First red is nailed on. Clear action to tug the hair. Grabs it, and tugs in opposite direction to movement - it’s a VC red nailed on. Don’t understand the moaning about it.

Grealish gave TK no choice. He seemed like he was completely fuelled tonight - we all know those players, sometimes you cannot manage them or get them on side.
 
I didn't see the game and have only seen replays. I'm intrigued as to whether PGMO back Tom Kirk on the Grealish sending off, I'd like to think they will but I suspect they won't back his decision, and might well chuck him under the bus should Everton complain.
 
As an Everton supporter, I’m not unbiased and agree Grealish absolutely deserved his second yellow card. He’d lost his head, didn’t calm down and in an angry volatile stadium it was a clear and deliberate act of dissent.

I’m much less convinced about Keane’s red card. Just before I saw this thread I was browsing through IFAB Law 12 and couldn’t see anything about hair-pulling specifically under the violent conduct. It may be elsewhere.

To me, it didn’t seem particularly violent, there was no excessive force, or endangerment. More forceful shirt pulling is ignored all the time. It was unpleasant and definitely unsporting and I think that if I saw that incident in a match I was reffing I’d be giving a yellow card.

If hair-pulling is listed or specified as VC somewhere else in IFAB I’m happy to accept the red card was justified. For his stupidity in doing alone, Keane probably deserved it. You might all remember that it was Keane who was slapped by his teammate Idrissa Gana Gueye a few weeks back in an equally bizarre sending off.

It’s a heavy cross to bear supporting them…
 
RustyRef said:
I didn't see the game and have only seen replays. I'm intrigued as to whether PGMO back Tom Kirk on the Grealish sending off, I'd like to think they will but I suspect they won't back his decision, and might well chuck him under the bus should Everton complain.
Click to expand...
My thoughts exactly on the Grealish decision. Huge respect for him for having the guts to make that decision
 
The red card is spot on in law but i would like too see it changed when the pull is minimal and for it to be a yellow for petulance/unsportsmanlike like conduct. If the hair pull occured when players are running or it's a proper aggressive tug then red all day as that can be classed as violent conduct but something like this feels too soft to be a red in my view.
 
Comparing shirt pulling to hair pulling is utter nonsense. One sorta kinda has a place in the game and the other just doesn't. One is clothing and one is the person. I'm perfectly fine with the standard on hair pulling being akin to contact to the face--unless it's negligible, it's VC. The appropriate amount of force with which to pull someone's hair is zero. So more than zero is excessive--and likely to instigate a fight. (I have not seen the clip, but as described in the OP, it sounds like a clear send off and one that VAR would get involved in if not given.)
 
Not too long ago biting wasn't in the laws and was universally accepted as a red card. I suspect pulling of hair may similarly be added.
Grabing, hitting, pulling, or 'squeezing' a man's genetals (even with moderate force) is not in law but they are all VC (in the same context).
As @socal lurker says, whether or not an act can be considered as part of the game of football has a lot of bearing on the outcome.
 
@social lurker You should at least have a look at the incident before drawing conclusions. It was entirely a VAR intervention, the game had continued without protest or issue, with the entire stadium bemused when the ref was sent to the screen. Negligible is a pretty accurate word to describe the action. Violent really isn’t.

I’m not trying to say it was a terrible decision, but possibly a VAR overreach. And I do admit some bias.

Incidentally, The Guardian’s match report begins with this, and continues along the same lines for several paragraphs. I didn’t see MOTD but I’d be interested to hear what they made of it.

“The game’s gone, part 999. The Wolves recovery continued at Everton yet their impressive resolve under Rob Edwards was overshadowed by the ludicrous red card that should embarrass Professional Match Game Officials and the Premier League.”
 
www.skysports.com

Why Jack Stephens was shown a red for pulling Marc Cucurella's hair

Howard Webb explains the reasons behind why Jack Stephens hair pull on Marc Cucurella is viewed as violent conduct in the laws of the games.
www.skysports.com www.skysports.com

Haven't seen it but Howard Webb explains here why a pull/tug of the hair is considered as violent conduct.

There was also a time when mike dean didn't send for review and it was deemed an error so the fact var sent it for review would be consistent with previous hair pulls albeit they are all.inbilving the same player.

I have yet to see this one to compare it but there is clear precedent that this should be viewed as violent conduct.
 
JamesL said:
www.skysports.com

Why Jack Stephens was shown a red for pulling Marc Cucurella's hair

Howard Webb explains the reasons behind why Jack Stephens hair pull on Marc Cucurella is viewed as violent conduct in the laws of the games.
www.skysports.com www.skysports.com

Haven't seen it but Howard Webb explains here why a pull/tug of the hair is considered as violent conduct.

There was also a time when mike dean didn't send for review and it was deemed an error so the fact var sent it for review would be consistent with previous hair pulls albeit they are all.inbilving the same player.

I have yet to see this one to compare it but there is clear precedent that this should be viewed as violent conduct.
Click to expand...
I think the reason it has to be a red (in my extremely biased opinion) is that there is a clear grab of the hair and a tug. It doesn’t take much force for hair pulling to be painful. Like biting/grabbing of genitals, it is just not allowed. Players will have to learn.
 
Johnners said:
@social lurker You should at least have a look at the incident before drawing conclusions. It was entirely a VAR intervention, the game had continued without protest or issue, with the entire stadium bemused when the ref was sent to the screen. Negligible is a pretty accurate word to describe the action. Violent really isn’t.
Click to expand...
are you sure there was no reaction? The player whose hair was pulled goes mad. Perhaps no reaction elsewhere because nobody else saw it.

With that said, I would be supportive of a directive that incidents like this are a caution, not a red. It’s an instinctive pull as part of an aerial challenge rather than a deliberate and violent pull, but with things as they are currently, the ref / VAR had nowhere to go.

I actually don’t disagree with Moyes’ post match comments, again, inferring it as an instinctive pull and not violent, but also saying that Grealish had no defence for his 2 cautions 👏
 
As James L has intimated, ever since the incident involving Mike Dean (who was the 4th official) who didn’t bring an unspotted hair pull to the attention of Anthony Taylor, it has been generally accepted across the football world in both men & women’s football that a hair pull is a sending off offence whatever degree of tug, similar to a player making contact with a deliberate act to touch, slap, punch, strike the head of an opponent.
 
If you introduce a new directive where some pulls like this could be punished with a yellow, there are a few issues - first, the referee should see it in real-time and be able to deem just from that that it's a hair pull which isn't a violent conduct (and I don't think any hair pull has been caught in real-time, it's always been a VAR intervention). Second, the referee will have to make a subjective call whether it was a violent conduct or not, and in this climate it will just give unwanted attention and referees will pay the price. Players should just refrain from any sort of hair pull and that's it.
 
RefereeX said:
are you sure there was no reaction? The player whose hair was pulled goes mad. Perhaps no reaction elsewhere because nobody else saw it.

With that said, I would be supportive of a directive that incidents like this are a caution, not a red. It’s an instinctive pull as part of an aerial challenge rather than a deliberate and violent pull, but with things as they are currently, the ref / VAR had nowhere to go.

I actually don’t disagree with Moyes’ post match comments, again, inferring it as an instinctive pull and not violent, but also saying that Grealish had no defence for his 2 cautions 👏
Click to expand...
Hair pulling should just be a red card. Perhaps it could be Violent and/or Unacceptable Conduct…. Which can include grabbing of genitals, hair pulling, biting etc.?

Think Moyes will always find someone else to blame… like most managers would. He should have substituted JG about 5 minutes before then when he was lucky not to get binned. Referee clearly gave him a final chance. But it is easy to blame the referee.
 
Wolf_Ref said:
Hair pulling should just be a red card. Perhaps it could be Violent and/or Unacceptable Conduct…. Which can include grabbing of genitals, hair pulling, biting etc.?

Think Moyes will always find someone else to blame… like most managers would. He should have substituted JG about 5 minutes before then when he was lucky not to get binned. Referee clearly gave him a final chance. But it is easy to blame the referee.
Click to expand...
Maybe we'll get football back to how it was in the 80s where long hair is the norm as a sort of cheat code 😆

I get that it has no place in the game, and fully understand that with the way things are currently, it's a red card. I just think that sometimes a player in the air may instinctively grab whatever is in front of him, and it's a little harsh for it to be a red card in that situation. Only my opinion though.

Again, 100% agee with him being sent off last night, because that's currently the expectation. I just think I wouldn't mind seeing the expectation change slightly.
 
RefereeX said:
Maybe we'll get football back to how it was in the 80s where long hair is the norm as a sort of cheat code 😆

I get that it has no place in the game, and fully understand that with the way things are currently, it's a red card. I just think that sometimes a player in the air may instinctively grab whatever is in front of him, and it's a little harsh for it to be a red card in that situation. Only my opinion though.

Again, 100% agee with him being sent off last night, because that's currently the expectation. I just think I wouldn't mind seeing the expectation change slightly.
Click to expand...
What reaction was the "puller" hoping for here?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top