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I was going to leave this topic alone but for some reason I can't help it. Probably because of the feeling that I can't quite put a name on it, disappointment, anger, frustration come to mind.
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I can't think of any sports that would accept this amount of contempt, aggression and disrespect to the sports authorities. Imagine this happening in Cricket, rugby, tennis .... you name it. Forget sport, any organisation where it's members show this sort of disrespect to their authorities.

The payer in OP or the referees in it are not what I am worried about. It's the fact that a significant enough number of learned, experienced and well respected referees are comfortable with it, accepting it and ok with it not being sanctioned. This is absolutely no dig at these referees. But the feeling of the state of the culture that we as the whole of football community have created that makes a large portion of the community, including officials be comfortable with this sort of behavior not being sectioned for whatever reason. An how difficult or next to impossible I feel it has become to turn this culture around.

I feel, on the field there are two diseases that will destroy our game from within, cheating and dissent/disrespect (and corruption for off the field). And they have all gotten worse and somewhat normalised over the last few years and decades.

That player behavior is not OK. Not sanctioning it is not OK. No matter the reason behind it nor what level of game it is.
 
The Ref Stop
OnlyUseMeWhistle said:
Not a contradiction. Failing to punish this behaviour encourages it. Backing other referees means not being last week’s ref.
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It is a contradiction. It begins by saying that it’s disappointing to see referees not backing other referees and continues on to say that the referee failed his AR.
It’s a fairly safe assumption to make that the commenter has zero idea of the pressure involved in that situation, so by criticising, he is contradicting his opening salvo.

I’ve no issue with people who think that the expectation of officials in this position should not be to let this slide under the radar because it isn’t public enough or personal enough, but ultimately, whether people want to accept it or not, that is the case.
At that point, how can you blame 2 individuals who want to further their career?
 
Runner Ref said:
How have we got to a position where officials need to allow themselves, and then fellow officials, to be abused in order to further their career? Is that really a healthy working environment?
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As I said, taking issue with that is a separate debate entirely.

I do slightly disagree that this will cause any sort of spike in poor behaviour at grass roots level, but then that’s also a separate debate. I think criticism of the officials is a bigger enemy in that sphere.
 
RefereeX said:
As I said, taking issue with that is a separate debate entirely.

I do slightly disagree that this will cause any sort of spike in poor behaviour at grass roots level, but then that’s also a separate debate. I think criticism of the officials is a bigger enemy in that sphere.
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Of course this causes a spike at grassroots. Those at grassroots copy what they see on TV. Whether that be players, spectators, managers or officials.

And I don’t blame them. If you see the professionals getting away with it, why shouldn’t someone at grassroots?

The higher echelons don’t care. They pretend to, which is why they do respect campaigns and made the ‘only captain can speak to referee’ changes; but they’re token gestures. Nothing more.
 
Runner Ref said:
How have we got to a position where officials need to allow themselves, and then fellow officials, to be abused in order to further their career? Is that really a healthy working environment?
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Overall, we haven't. Looked at more generally, over the last couple of years there's been a marked increase in dissent cautions across the English Leagues. Take Barry Bannan's recent high profile dismissal for Sheffield Wednesday, the first of his cautions was for a case of clear, visual (and verbal) dissent. And I've been party to multiple clips where officials have been publicly chastised for NOT taking strong, decisive action against such things. It's just that obvious non-verbal dissent is simply much easier / more important to punish versus verbal (at all levels) .. it's less of a surprise to both other participants and the paying public.

Yes, there's a reality that you need to have a 'thicker skin' at higher levels and yes, there's a knock on issue with lower level players copycatting stuff from the TV. But, frankly, if ALL grassroots referees were prepared to use ALL the tools at their disposal to deal with any behaviour they felt to be inappropriate, then I'd wager that would have a much much bigger impact on player behaviour at that level ... at the end of the day, it's simply not rocket science to understand that games on a council park and games watched by thousands / millions are completely different beasts that need managing in fundamentally different ways
 
Russell Jones said:
Overall, we haven't. Looked at more generally, over the last couple of years there's been a marked increase in dissent cautions across the English Leagues. Take Barry Bannan's recent high profile dismissal for Sheffield Wednesday, the first of his cautions was for a case of clear, visual (and verbal) dissent. And I've been party to multiple clips where officials have been publicly chastised for NOT taking strong, decisive action against such things. It's just that obvious non-verbal dissent is simply much easier / more important to punish versus verbal (at all levels) .. it's less of a surprise to both other participants and the paying public.

Yes, there's a reality that you need to have a 'thicker skin' at higher levels and yes, there's a knock on issue with lower level players copycatting stuff from the TV. But, frankly, if ALL grassroots referees were prepared to use ALL the tools at their disposal to deal with any behaviour they felt to be inappropriate, then I'd wager that would have a much much bigger impact on player behaviour at that level ... at the end of the day, it's simply not rocket science to understand that games on a council park and games watched by thousands / millions are completely different beasts that need managing in fundamentally different ways
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Cautioning someone for dissent as a first caution is all well and good- but it’s also a lot simpler. Officials need to have the bottle to do it when someone is on a caution already.

It’s difficult to tell grassroots referees aka amateur referees, to use all of their tools when they see their seniors completely ignoring their use.

Unfortunately football is no longer a sport, it’s a business. A business in which they’re desperate to keep 11v11 on the pitch, rather than do their jobs.
 
Runner Ref said:
Of course this causes a spike at grassroots. Those at grassroots copy what they see on TV. Whether that be players, spectators, managers or officials.

And I don’t blame them. If you see the professionals getting away with it, why shouldn’t someone at grassroots?

The higher echelons don’t care. They pretend to, which is why they do respect campaigns and made the ‘only captain can speak to referee’ changes; but they’re token gestures. Nothing more.
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I don’t disagree that people will copy generally what they see on the tele, but I don’t think 19 year old chavs playing football are only calling the ref a c*nt because they saw a Sheffield United player do it.
The continual degrading of referees on social media and tv is a far bigger enemy which causing a complete lack of respect
 
RefereeX said:
I don’t disagree that people will copy generally what they see on the tele, but I don’t think 19 year old chavs playing football are only calling the ref a c*nt because they saw a Sheffield United player do it.
The continual degrading of referees on social media and tv is a far bigger enemy which causing a complete lack of respect
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I part agree with you. There is a lot less respect for authority nowadays. However, senior officials are only making things worse by not taking action when they’re on a larger stage than a grassroots official
 
RefereeX said:
I don’t disagree that people will copy generally what they see on the tele, but I don’t think 19 year old chavs playing football are only calling the ref a c*nt because they saw a Sheffield United player do it.
The continual degrading of referees on social media and tv is a far bigger enemy which causing a complete lack of respect
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Totally agree. And before someone says 'the officials would get more respect if they didn't (sometimes) stand for dissent', that's simply not the case. If cards were shown more frequently for verbal dissent, we'd instead have ref bashing for the officials "showing no empathy", "acting like robots", "not understanding the passion of the game", "being power crazy" etc etc etc. It's an absolute no win. So, as you'd completely expect, in an attempt to walk a fine and very difficult line, high level officials default to doing their stressful, nuanced jobs as their employers' request ... as best they can under immense pressure
 
@RefereeX I hope i never have to referee with you as i can tell you would allow this behaviour. Which is disappointing, and if furthering your career is more important than protecting other officials from abuse than so be it. There lies the problem, referees will continue to get abused if this behaviour is not dealt with
 
Rob123 said:
As usual disappointing to have referees in here not backing other referees, this behaviour needs to be stomped out. The player engages the chat with the Ar and as such the AR responds. The player responds to to this by abusing the referee and should have been sent off. The referee has let the AR down, to be treated like this would not be accepted anywhere else. But I can understand why it is as other referees seem to not care about this in their own games @Big Cat
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Strangely, i'd probably sanction this behaviour if i was the referee. As AR however, I would stop short of involving the referee in something he may not thank me for

I understand and appreciate the reality that TV sets the precadent. This behaviour will be copied at grass roots, a level at which its not acceptable. I get that. Especially in kids football, its incumbant upon the parents to realize they're in an entirely different environment and copying is not acceptable
 
Runner Ref said:
This is a prime example of PGMOL either being weak or not caring about grassroots
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This is the finest example of a sport in which money comes first and morals come last. I myself speak of other sports where passion doesn't lead to abuse, but i think inside i know that if rugby turned into a multi-billion pound industry, "Yes Sir" and zero tolerance would go out the window within a year.
 
one said:
I was going to leave this topic alone but for some reason I can't help it. Probably because of the feeling that I can't quite put a name on it, disappointment, anger, frustration come to mind.
.
I can't think of any sports that would accept this amount of contempt, aggression and disrespect to the sports authorities. Imagine this happening in Cricket, rugby, tennis .... you name it. Forget sport, any organisation where it's members show this sort of disrespect to their authorities.

The payer in OP or the referees in it are not what I am worried about. It's the fact that a significant enough number of learned, experienced and well respected referees are comfortable with it, accepting it and ok with it not being sanctioned. This is absolutely no dig at these referees. But the feeling of the state of the culture that we as the whole of football community have created that makes a large portion of the community, including officials be comfortable with this sort of behavior not being sectioned for whatever reason. An how difficult or next to impossible I feel it has become to turn this culture around.

I feel, on the field there are two diseases that will destroy our game from within, cheating and dissent/disrespect (and corruption for off the field). And they have all gotten worse and somewhat normalised over the last few years and decades.

That player behavior is not OK. Not sanctioning it is not OK. No matter the reason behind it nor what level of game it is.
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Cricket wouldn’t accept it, though the player would remain on the field so to speak and only dealt with at the end of the day’s play or end of the game, resulting in demerit points/% fine of match fee/potential suspension. In the case of football then in the specific incident mentioned a 2nd yellow or red would have seen the player sent off. In rugby then it may have been a sin bin or off permanently.
 
DavidObs said:
Cricket wouldn’t accept it, though the player would remain on the field so to speak and only dealt with at the end of the day’s play or end of the game, resulting in demerit points/% fine of match fee/potential suspension. In the case of football then in the specific incident mentioned a 2nd yellow or red would have seen the player sent off. In rugby then it may have been a sin bin or off permanently.
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As someone who also umpires cricket in some of the lower level ECB competitions, if a player used that language they 100% would not be on the field any longer. That would likely be classed as a Level 2 or 3 offence, and they would be temporarily removed from the field without hesitation (if Level 3), in addition to 5 penalty runs, a big fine, and a suspension which would probably be between 6 and 10 matches.

Football is the only sport I can think of where that language is, for some reason, widely accepted and allowed to go unpunished. I can understand why it wasn't penalised in this case, but that doesn't make it right.
 
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Gabriel said:
As someone who also umpires cricket in some of the lower level ECB competitions, if a player used that language they 100% would not be on the field any longer. That would likely be classed as a Level 2 or 3 offence, and they would be temporarily removed from the field without hesitation (if Level 3), in addition to 5 penalty runs, a big fine, and a suspension which would probably be between 6 and 10 matches.

Football is the only sport I can think of where that language is, for some reason, widely accepted and allowed to go unpunished. I can understand why it wasn't penalised in this case, but that doesn't make it right.
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And that is definitely appropriate at the lower level of ECB, though I was really talking about elite level where that tends not to happen.
 
DavidObs said:
And that is definitely appropriate at the lower level of ECB, though I was really talking about elite level where that tends not to happen.
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As much as I can agree with you there, I genuinely believe that it doesn't happen in the first place in elite cricket (and other sports such as rugby) as the players know they won't get away with it, unlike football where we see time after time that they can pretty much say what they like and know they won't get more than a yellow (bar a few very, very rare occasions where a red was shown).
 
I totally understand the strength of feeling from those that would like to see such language more routinely sanctioned at the higher levels. I do get that the example set can be one of the factors impacting behaviour and expectation at lower levels.

However, I’d also ask those people to imagine the response from the footballing world if instead this incident had only been seen / not heard from a distance rather than in extreme close up (as is more normal). If then a second YC had been produced, seemingly out of nowhere / for very little, there would have been a massive outcry about over officiousness unnecessarily ruining the spectacle for everybody. That just emphasises the difficulty involved in striking the right balance …
 
Russell Jones said:
However, I’d also ask those people to imagine the response from the footballing world if instead this incident had only been seen / not heard from a distance rather than in extreme close up (as is more normal). If then a second YC had been produced, seemingly out of nowhere / for very little, there would have been a massive outcry about over officiousness unnecessarily ruining the spectacle for everybody. That just emphasises the difficulty involved in striking the right balance …
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Football League game; 90th minute, 5-0 score line.

DOGSO offence outside the area. Are you going to not send the defender off as people may think you’re being over officious and ruining the spectacle?
 
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