The Ref Stop

Injured AR in EFL

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lincs22

lincs22

Supply League Observer
Staff member
Observer/Tutor
https://talksport.com/football/3438...efl-league-two-match-suspended-crowd-referee/

It always surprises me that the game has to be suspended to find a 4th official!

The injured AR could act as a 4th official until a additional official has been found in instances like this. His injury won't really affect his ability to manage the benches, etc.

Anybody with more experience of being a regular 4O could supply anymore background?
 
The Ref Stop
Look at it another way. That level of football takes a lot of commitment. I think mentally, you mind would be shot. I have had to come off injured several occasions in my career (now retired). Each time, being 4th official would have mentally been impossible but maybe just about physically got through. Would I been any use to the referee probably not. This is more challenging if you went through a serious of injuries and each time you have broken down again after a few months. Just another thought.
 
You're of better use that delaying the whole game and the lives of 5/10/15/70k people though.
 
Happened to me on a PL2 game. Needed to go off injured. 4O went AR and I took over 4O duties. No need for a fuss. The observe didn’t even notice we had switched (probably not the best idea 😬)

Dependant on how bad the injury is, of course.
 
It depends on the injury. I’ve had lots over the years but it would always take something serious to force me off, and there’s no way I’d be holding a board up. I can only think of one of the injuries where I would be capable of doing it, and there’d be zero chance with the calf and groin tears.

As well as the pain, you are also often emotionally broken if you go off injured. A player going off injured would be straight in the treatment room, why should a referee be any different? Why is it acceptable to think they can carry on performing a role when you certainly wouldn’t be expecting an injured player to take any further part in the game.

And, to give credit to clubs, whenever I have been injured at a game the physios were brilliant. For one of them he didn’t just sort me on the night, he also offered me free treatment until I’d recovered.
 
es1 said:
You're of better use that delaying the whole game and the lives of 5/10/15/70k people though.
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So would you risk being out for awhile the sake of others. I should have come off injured in the 87th minute as an AR. I was silly to carry on. Never really recovered.
 
RustyRef said:
It depends on the injury. I’ve had lots over the years but it would always take something serious to force me off, and there’s no way I’d be holding a board up. I can only think of one of the injuries where I would be capable of doing it, and there’d be zero chance with the calf and groin tears.

As well as the pain, you are also often emotionally broken if you go off injured. A player going off injured would be straight in the treatment room, why should a referee be any different? Why is it acceptable to think they can carry on performing a role when you certainly wouldn’t be expecting an injured player to take any further part in the game.

And, to give credit to clubs, whenever I have been injured at a game the physios were brilliant. For one of them he didn’t just sort me on the night, he also offered me free treatment until I’d recovered.
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My point exactly
 
refs1 said:
So would you risk being out for awhile the sake of others. I should have come off injured in the 87th minute as an AR. I was silly to carry on. Never really recovered.
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Absolutely not, if you can't carry on you can't carry on. But (depending on the injury) you can act as a 4th
 
es1 said:
Absolutely not, if you can't carry on you can't carry on. But (depending on the injury) you can act as a 4th
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But why should you be expected to do so? Does a player who has gone off injured play any further part in the game?

I do get the argument that a referee who has, for example, pulled his calf, could hold a board up. But I also come back to the mental side of it, if you've had to go off your head is all over the place. You aren't really thinking about the game, you are thinking about whether you will blow a whistle or hold a flag again that season.
 
RustyRef said:
But why should you be expected to do so? Does a player who has gone off injured play any further part in the game?

I do get the argument that a referee who has, for example, pulled his calf, could hold a board up. But I also come back to the mental side of it, if you've had to go off your head is all over the place. You aren't really thinking about the game, you are thinking about whether you will blow a whistle or hold a flag again that season.
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Devils advocate: when Ronaldo went off injured in the euro final he took up a bit of coaching/cheerleading role.

Granted this is the only example I can think of.

I do think it depends on the severity of the injury. Most refs I've seen come off injured, which Ive seen live in EFL have taken over 4th duties. Never had it when the game was stopped to find a 4O so I assume that this only happens when they simply can't carry on in any capacity rather than the norm.
 
RustyRef said:
But why should you be expected to do so? Does a player who has gone off injured play any further part in the game?

I do get the argument that a referee who has, for example, pulled his calf, could hold a board up. But I also come back to the mental side of it, if you've had to go off your head is all over the place. You aren't really thinking about the game, you are thinking about whether you will blow a whistle or hold a flag again that season.
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Because, in a professional setting, you have potentially many thousands of people watching and waiting. Get on and do the job you're paid bloody well to do.

We're talking about a situation where they're looking for someone from the crowd as well to take over when possible.
 
es1 said:
Because, in a professional setting, you have potentially many thousands of people watching and waiting. Get on and do the job you're paid bloody well to do.

We're talking about a situation where they're looking for someone from the crowd as well to take over when possible.
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Again though, it comes down to the severity of the injury. I've had a grade 3 calf tear and grade 2 groin tear during games, you aren't holding a board up after that happens. I had to be driven home for the first one, just standing was pretty much impossible for weeks.

Yes there are potentially thousands watching, but equally that means there is almost always going to be a L5 or above referee in the crowd. And that's the inequality of it, you say do what you are paid to do, but the players are paid to play and no one has a go at them when they go off injured.

And I'll be completely honest here, even when I went off with what turned out to be a grade 2 calf tear I couldn't really care about the game. I was told by the home club physio to go and lay down on his massage table, so that is exactly what I did. There are several thousand people inside grounds that think they are referees, let's see them step up and prove it.
 
The Manager of one of the teams (for Bromley) is very unhappy about the delay, calls it embarrassing, but what he doesn’t say is what did he want/expect to happen. As usual with many things in life, people often know what they don’t want, but more difficult with what they do want. He didn’t say anything about the injured official not taking up 4th official duties, so one can only imagine he requires a 5th official to be appointed to games, which is unrealistic. There has been longer delays when supporters are taken ill (with some appropriate abandonments), but no criticism about them (and rightly so). In the case of the Bromley game, it’s just one of those things & have to adapt to the situation as both teams do.
 
We're talking about a situation where they're looking for someone from the crowd as well to take over when possible
RustyRef said:
Again though, it comes down to the severity of the injury. I've had a grade 3 calf tear and grade 2 groin tear during games, you aren't holding a board up after that happens. I had to be driven home for the first one, just standing was pretty much impossible for weeks.
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well yes, that's what i said in the message you replied to!
 
RefJef said:
Slightly different question- could the game not continue without a fourth official?
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In theory it could and if no one had come forward from the crowd then I suspect the game involving Bromley would have come to a finish. However, having a 4th official is better than not having one.
 
DavidObs said:
In theory it could and if no one had come forward from the crowd then I suspect the game involving Bromley would have come to a finish. However, having a 4th official is better than not having one.
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You then have to ask what happens if another official goes down and you have no 4th official. Happened at Millwall a few years ago when the referee went down injured. 4th official went on as referee, and they got a L5 London referee from the crowd to be 4th, then one of the ARs tore his calf and the L5 ended up on the line. Had they not plucked him from the crowd they would have just had the delay at that point.

They will always try to find someone for this reason, plus in case there are any serious incidents involving the benches. Realistically when there are thousands of people at a game there is always like to be a qualified referee. I've answered the call a couple of times at Hillsborough, only for them to have found someone else by the time the stewards got me round to the South Stand (probably someone who hadn't had a few pre-match pints as well 😂).
 
RustyRef said:
You then have to ask what happens if another official goes down and you have no 4th official. Happened at Millwall a few years ago when the referee went down injured. 4th official went on as referee, and they got a L5 London referee from the crowd to be 4th, then one of the ARs tore his calf and the L5 ended up on the line. Had they not plucked him from the crowd they would have just had the delay at that point.

They will always try to find someone for this reason, plus in case there are any serious incidents involving the benches. Realistically when there are thousands of people at a game there is always like to be a qualified referee. I've answered the call a couple of times at Hillsborough, only for them to have found someone else by the time the stewards got me round to the South Stand (probably someone who hadn't had a few pre-match pints as well 😂).
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True and I agree will always try to find someone, especially in the scenario you have highlighted concerning Millwall. However, if they can’t find anyone, especially in the situation concerning Millwall, then there will be no alternative but to abandon the game, but it will and should be the very last resort.
 
RustyRef said:
You then have to ask what happens if another official goes down and you have no 4th official. Happened at Millwall a few years ago when the referee went down injured. 4th official went on as referee, and they got a L5 London referee from the crowd to be 4th, then one of the ARs tore his calf and the L5 ended up on the line. Had they not plucked him from the crowd they would have just had the delay at that point.

They will always try to find someone for this reason, plus in case there are any serious incidents involving the benches. Realistically when there are thousands of people at a game there is always like to be a qualified referee. I've answered the call a couple of times at Hillsborough, only for them to have found someone else by the time the stewards got me round to the South Stand (probably someone who hadn't had a few pre-match pints as well 😂).
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I recall there was an FA cup 3rd round tie a few years ago, where the Referee and 4O both went down. One of the AR had to take over in the middle but the teams could not agree on a replacement AR (as the one who volunteered was on the non-football staff of the home club). They had to finish the match with just 2 officials.
 
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