Utd v villa

El__Juez__ said:

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Very interesting to see TBs record this season. His first game in charge was the National League game.

Without wading into the debate as to whether the decision was right or wrong, the question on my mind is why officials such as Attwell, Oliver, Tierney and Brooks were VARs in week 38 and not in the middle for the United v Villa match. What is the appointment criteria?

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The fact that his first game was late October in the National League very much suggests he missed the start of the season through injury and that National League game, followed immediately by a EFL Trophy game, was effectively his pre-season preparation. SG1 referees don't referee National League and EFL Trophy matches unless they are needing to gain match practice.

We shouldn't forget that he isn't a new referee, he is in his 3rd season as an SG1 referee and has refereed upwards of 30 EPL games and FA / League Cup ties between all Premier League teams. He's effectively followed the pattern of most referees promoted to SG1, started off getting more Championship than Premier League games, gradually given more exposure before they become mainstays in the Premier League. The same happened with Rob Jones, Andy Madley, Peter Bankes, Tim Robinson, etc. As for the other referees you've listed, Tierney hasn't refereed a game all season, Brooks has had some high profile controversy recently, and Oliver clearly couldn't referee any of the games yesterday affecting the Champion's League qualification chase. Perhaps Attwell could have done it but he seems to be viewed as one of the best VARs so perhaps they prioritised that. Arguably the best performing referee this season, Chris Kavanagh, was in action on the play off final so obviously not available, and the pool they could select from wasn't huge. The same reason they had lots of referees with no EPL experience on 4th official and VAR duties.

Big Cat said:

I think you're all missing something. If the goal had stood and VAR had remained quiet, the game would've got the expected decision and the controversy would've been minimal as we all know the pundits wouldn't know about the 'any contact' statement

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Given the number of so called experts stating that the keeper didn't have both hands on the ball there was always going to be controversy no matter what the outcome was. In blowing early Thomas Bramall has just ensured that the blame lies with him rather than Stuart Attwell on VAR.

Big Cat said:

I think you're all missing something. If the goal had stood and VAR had remained quiet, the game would've got the expected decision and the controversy would've been minimal as we all know the pundits wouldn't know about the 'any contact' statement

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But because the referees got it right, in my opinion, there is an outrage because it cost a team a goal and potentially £100m because they lost out on CL football.

Now, what happened in Aston Villas 37 other league games that could have cost them a CL place?
Have to give Aston Villa credit, it seems they've won all but 2 games in the league since end of February (to both Manchester sides ironically) but in February they picked up just 5 points from 15. And that included playing Ipswich who played with 10 men for the entire second half.
What refereeing official was the reason they didn't get CL for their shocking results in February?
In those games, they lost to (at the time) relegation "threatened" Wolves, drew with Ipswich and got pumped 4-1 (which wouldn't have helped their goal difference) against Crystal Palace.

Big Cat said:

I think you're all missing something. If the goal had stood and VAR had remained quiet, the game would've got the expected decision and the controversy would've been minimal as we all know the pundits wouldn't know about the 'any contact' statement

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I think you are underestimaing the willingness of the pundits to create controversy and blame referees for it. "He kicked it out of his hands" would be the cry.

Edit: autocorrect corrected

ladbroke8745 said:

But because the referees got it right, in my opinion, there is an outrage because it cost a team a goal and potentially £100m because they lost out on CL football.

Now, what happened in Aston Villas 37 other league games that could have cost them a CL place?
Have to give Aston Villa credit, it seems they've won all but 2 games in the league since end of February (to both Manchester sides ironically) but in February they picked up just 5 points from 15. And that included playing Ipswich who played with 10 men for the entire second half.
What refereeing official was the reason they didn't get CL for their shocking results in February?
In those games, they lost to (at the time) relegation "threatened" Wolves, drew with Ipswich and got pumped 4-1 (which wouldn't have helped their goal difference) against Crystal Palace.

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I understand the whole 38 games thing. Which is partly why I think VAR offers nothing when the detriment it causes to the game is accounted for. That's because over 38 games there are winners and losers with VAR, just as there would be without it
It's not a football thing to accredit much greater significance to the most recent event, it's a human psychology thing. The vast majority of people, especially in the moment of disappointment and anger, cannot be mindful of what the players did in the other 89 minutes of the game or the 3420 minutes of the season... almost everyone will be totally blinded by that last decision, coupled with the fact that it's also a normal psychological tendency to look for someone else to blame. We are totally screwed as referees when the culture of football has no lid to contain these short-sighted emotions and reactions. We just have to take it or find something else to do. We almost have to embrace it, because that's the way it is and it isn't going to change

Anyway, for those who think VAR could've helped here, I have no clue what the VAR would've concluded in this case. Whatever they decided (given the opportunity), it seems lost on everyone that all that would've happened, is a further ramping of controversy because the ref's mistake (blowing too early) will be forgiven in the days following, but any decision made by VAR is infinitely less palatable for anyone who doesn't like the outcome

Obviously it's a mistake with the referee blowing the whistle early and I think the camera angle from behind the goal clearly shows when Rogers touched the ball, the keeper has got no contact on the ball with either hand.

I must admit though, I am skeptical whether VAR would intervene, I think it's one of those where some might and some won't, we will never know in this incident sadly

It's unfortunate for Thomas he made this mistake and apart from Villa fans, it will soon be forgotten about and hopefully he can progress through the ranks next season.

I think I can summarise three pages of discussion thus:

Makes a decision - “blew too early”

Played on/waited - “he’s relying on VAR to bail him out”

Can’t win either way

I do think PGMOL could have been a lot wiser in their appointment for the game. TB obviously hasn't had too many PL games this season for one reason or another. I think I read there are 17 other officials who have taken control of more games this season. This added to the fact that he is in reality still a relative newcomer.

Would a more experienced referee not end up in this situation? Who knows. But when you end up with a game that had as much riding on it as this does, PGMOL could be so much wiser.

Runner Ref said:

I do think PGMOL could have been a lot wiser in their appointment for the game. TB obviously hasn't had too many PL games this season for one reason or another. I think I read there are 17 other officials who have taken control of more games this season. This added to the fact that he is in reality still a relative newcomer.

Would a more experienced referee not end up in this situation? Who knows. But when you end up with a game that had as much riding on it as this does, PGMOL could be so much wiser.

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I do wonder if the appts should've been opposite, with Atwell on the field and not in VAR

ladbroke8745 said:

I do wonder if the appts should've been opposite, with Atwell on the field and not in VAR

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That would have made more sense (although I dont rate Attwell)

I am stupified by this one TBH.

It is an offence. Blah VAR, blah whistle, blah ref, blah terrible wording… but it’s a foul. No goal. Smart refereeing. Move on.

Keith Hackett has spoken... you can all shut up now!

Professional Game Match Officials Limited made a "poor management decision" in appointing Thomas Bramall to officiate Aston Villa's defeat by Manchester United, says former referees' boss Keith Hackett. - BBC Sport

Homer Ref said:

Keith Hackett has spoken... you can all shut up now!

Professional Game Match Officials Limited made a "poor management decision" in appointing Thomas Bramall to officiate Aston Villa's defeat by Manchester United, says former referees' boss Keith Hackett. - BBC Sport

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Mmm! I think I would rather listen to Dermot on this one which was much more realistic.

Homer Ref said:

Keith Hackett has spoken... you can all shut up now!

Professional Game Match Officials Limited made a "poor management decision" in appointing Thomas Bramall to officiate Aston Villa's defeat by Manchester United, says former referees' boss Keith Hackett. - BBC Sport

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He also said that he was disappointed that Michel Oliver was VAR on a nothing game and should have been out refereeing. So presumably that means he would have been happy to appoint a declared Newcastle supporter to referee a final day game that directly impacted Newcastle's chances of qualifying? The only games that had anything riding on them on the final day potentially impacted Newcastle.

The man is an absolute clown. Let's not forget that he operated the postcode rule, which meant you could referee any team as long as they weren't in the same postcode as you, even if you supported them. Hence why Mark Halsey, an openly supporting QPR fan, was allowed to referee them.

santa sangria said:

I am stupified by this one TBH.

It is an offence. Blah VAR, blah whistle, blah ref, blah terrible wording… but it’s a foul. No goal. Smart refereeing. Move on.

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It wasn't smart refereeing though, it's been agreed upon he should of held onto his whistle until after the goal was scored and then VAR can check.

I personally don't think it's a foul at all, looks clear too me when the attacker kicks it, the keeper has no contact with the ball, I'm just not too sure if VAR would be confident enough to recommend an overturn, as I said I think some might and some won't but whilst we shouldn't always base it just on pundits, I have not heard one pundits saying it's a foul.

Lucarelli99 said:

Honestly in one of my games I'm giving this every time because it's what everybody playing expects, as for the professional game though it's up for debate.....

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I'd imagine any grassroots referee is giving this as a foul because in real time it looks like he's dislodged the ball from the goalkeepers control, and outside of some whinging and complaining from the attacker I doubt there'd be much debate.

Paul_10 said:

It wasn't smart refereeing though, it's been agreed upon he should of held onto his whistle until after the goal was scored and then VAR can check.

I personally don't think it's a foul at all, looks clear too me when the attacker kicks it, the keeper has no contact with the ball, I'm just not too sure if VAR would be confident enough to recommend an overturn, as I said I think some might and some won't but whilst we shouldn't always base it just on pundits, I have not heard one pundits saying it's a foul.

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At what point did it look clear to you please? First watch at full speed, first replay in slow motion or after a forensic type review looking at all the different angles? Just wondering, not disputing your views but putting myself in the referees boots at that point I’m giving a free kick, but that’s applying a grassroots view .

Paul_10 said:

It wasn't smart refereeing though, it's been agreed upon he should of held onto his whistle until after the goal was scored and then VAR can check.

I personally don't think it's a foul at all, looks clear too me when the attacker kicks it, the keeper has no contact with the ball, I'm just not too sure if VAR would be confident enough to recommend an overturn, as I said I think some might and some won't but whilst we shouldn't always base it just on pundits, I have not heard one pundits saying it's a foul.

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This is where I am too. Ask me to make a yes/no decision based on replays but without knowing what actually happened on the pitch, and I'm saying he's more likely to not have control when it's kicked than to have control.

Am I VAR-overturn level of confident in that call? No. But it's absolutely questionable enough that the referee has made a mistake in blowing early and taking that decision away from the VAR, even if the final call would have "supported" his decision.

RustyRef said:

He also said that he was disappointed that Michel Oliver was VAR on a nothing game and should have been out refereeing. So presumably that means he would have been happy to appoint a declared Newcastle supporter to referee a final day game that directly impacted Newcastle's chances of qualifying? The only games that had anything riding on them on the final day potentially impacted Newcastle.

The man is an absolute clown. Let's not forget that he operated the postcode rule, which meant you could referee any team as long as they weren't in the same postcode as you, even if you supported them. Hence why Mark Halsey, an openly supporting QPR fan, was allowed to referee them.

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While I'm usually the first to pile in on Hackett (and am also someone who doesn't think Oliver has had a good season and isn't currently living up to his reputation), this is a disingenuous response. There were 10 games going on at the same time on Sunday, only 4 of which could (with even the most generous of readings) directly influence Newcastle's position.

And yet, we had Craig Pawson on Wolves v Brentford, Darren England on Liverpool v Palace, Kavanagh on the play-off final and not to mention a handful of other much more senior officials (Attwell, Tierney, Gillett, Bobby Madley) on various other VAR duties. Oliver could have taken any of those listed irrelevant matches and freed up Pawson/England/Kavanagh (or they could have used any of the more senior officials on VAR) for the United v Villa game. Even Rob Jones (who MO was VAR for) would have been a more experienced choice than Bramall with over 3x as many PL games - MO could have been in the middle for the match he VAR'd and Jones could have done this game.

Appreciate some may also have needed to be recused, but I've given you 8 other options for this middle. It was a deliberate gamble to put a less-senior official on a big-ish game and it backfired. I get that it's important to give up-and-coming officials opportunities to experience big games, but I would argue final day of the season isn't the time to take that risk.