The Ref Stop

Dealing with chronic dissent

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Viridis1886

Viridis1886

By the power of IFAB, you will obey me!
Level 5 Referee
Had one of those days when it was just one of those. A game with more whine than Majestic.

I've done both teams a few times and both have a reputation for it. Managed to give one really easy sin bin, but the question is how best to manage the multiple low level dissent from a broad range on both sides.

Except for the one easy one (public) it was hard to say that any other single player exceeded my threshold. Cumulatively however it did (persistent), but I couldn't quite manouver the situation to issue a caution for an individual. I spoke to players and captains to set the opportunity up with stepped approach but it never seemed to quite pan out.

My gut feeling is there should have been 2 more sin bins.
 
The Ref Stop
Viridis1886 said:
Had one of those days when it was just one of those. A game with more whine than Majestic.

I've done both teams a few times and both have a reputation for it. Managed to give one really easy sin bin, but the question is how best to manage the multiple low level dissent from a broad range on both sides.

Except for the one easy one (public) it was hard to say that any other single player exceeded my threshold. Cumulatively however it did (persistent), but I couldn't quite manouver the situation to issue a caution for an individual. I spoke to players and captains to set the opportunity up with stepped approach but it never seemed to quite pan out.

My gut feeling is there should have been 2 more sin bins.
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You’ll always get some games like that. Players would rather moan this just play football.

It’s hard to comment on things like this when you werent there, but you mention low level dissent. What was the low level dissent?

I’ve mentioned this plenty of times on here, but I still stand by it as the best piece of advice I ever received. Players aren’t your mates. It took me a good while to fully understand what this meant. But when I thought about it, there were times where I let players overstep the boundary. I’d smile at them and hope that solved the issue. Mainly due to not wanting to upset my club marks.

The chap who gave me the advice actually recorded what I thought was low level dissent in one of my games and showed it back to me. What I saw on the video from the sidelines was not how I remembered the incident at all. But safe to say, I’d let him walk over on me.

I’m not saying caution/sin bin everyone, but sometimes you can give people too many chances. If you let someone off with something, other players pick up on this and assume it’s okay. Before you know it, you’ve lost it.
 
Runner Ref said:
I’m not saying caution/sin bin everyone, but sometimes you can give people too many chances. If you let someone off with something, other players pick up on this and assume it’s okay. Before you know it, you’ve lost it.
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I think this is probably it. I should have just picked my target(s), given them a warning and then sucked it up and gone sin bin. It was always the case that each comment was pretty much nothing, but cumulatively...
 
Viridis1886 said:
I think this is probably it. I should have just picked my target(s), given them a warning and then sucked it up and gone sin bin. It was always the case that each comment was pretty much nothing, but cumulatively...
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Bear in mind that you don’t necessarily need to give them a warning. Yes there is the stepped approach, but this isn’t an exact science.
 
Viridis1886 said:
I think this is probably it. I should have just picked my target(s), given them a warning and then sucked it up and gone sin bin. It was always the case that each comment was pretty much nothing, but cumulatively..
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What were the captains like? Were they moaners too?

Empathise with you having had a couple of games recently where I've felt exactly the same as you. In hindsight I wish I'd been quicker on to it but it's not always easy to find "the moment" to get the first sin bin out.

Perhaps it's the sort of situation where you get the captain in and give them a final 'team' warning ("Work with me and I'll work with you as best I can" sort of thing) and then if that doesn't stop it they can't say they weren't warned?

Sometimes though there isn't really anything that can be done about players preferring to have a moan.
 
It’s as if I posted this! I too officiated a match today where the level of persistent dissent was well above anything I’d ever experienced in 10 years of refereeing. It was constant and difficult for me to manage. Players constantly questioning my decisions, asking for an explanation on every call I made, whether it was blatantly obvious or not. I issued 4 sins and a red card to a player who continued to demonstrate dissent whilst leaving the field for dissent!

On reflection I thought I made a lot of good calls, including awarding a penalty for a foul and played advantage that led to a goal. However, the losing team were incensed by me throughout the whole game and even approached me in an aggressive manner after the final whistle. I’ve submitted all in my match report but my head is still battered with how the match went. I’m usually pretty good at handling players, but I just couldn’t manage them. Anyone else experienced this before and how did you come back from it?

Last thing, I had an observer watch me today for the first time and I have to say it didn’t go quite as I thought. His immediate feedback was very negative, he offered nothing positive. On one occasion the ball goes out for a throw, he happens to pick it up and questions the air pressure of the ball. This resulted in the players looking at me as if I hadn’t checked it. The ball was absolutely fine and the players agreed there was nothing wrong with it. I don’t understand what he was trying to achieve by doing that? Are observers not supposed to offer both constructive criticism and a bit of encouragement? As I say it’s my first time so would be helpful to understand what an observer usually says to the referee.

Thanks all
 
MGILLAN said:
It’s as if I posted this! I too officiated a match today where the level of persistent dissent was well above anything I’d ever experienced in 10 years of refereeing. It was constant and difficult for me to manage. Players constantly questioning my decisions, asking for an explanation on every call I made, whether it was blatantly obvious or not. I issued 4 sins and a red card to a player who continued to demonstrate dissent whilst leaving the field for dissent!

On reflection I thought I made a lot of good calls, including awarding a penalty for a foul and played advantage that led to a goal. However, the losing team were incensed by me throughout the whole game and even approached me in an aggressive manner after the final whistle. I’ve submitted all in my match report but my head is still battered with how the match went. I’m usually pretty good at handling players, but I just couldn’t manage them. Anyone else experienced this before and how did you come back from it?

Last thing, I had an observer watch me today for the first time and I have to say it didn’t go quite as I thought. His immediate feedback was very negative, he offered nothing positive. On one occasion the ball goes out for a throw, he happens to pick it up and questions the air pressure of the ball. This resulted in the players looking at me as if I hadn’t checked it. The ball was absolutely fine and the players agreed there was nothing wrong with it. I don’t understand what he was trying to achieve by doing that? Are observers not supposed to offer both constructive criticism and a bit of encouragement? As I say it’s my first time so would be helpful to understand what an observer usually says to the referee.

Thanks all
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I wouldn't expect an observer, and I'd assume as you are L7 it was a match day coach rather than observer, to do something like that. Even back in the days when we were assessors, I've always viewed the role for us at grass roots as coaches rather than out and out assessors. We are there to help you develop and shouldn't be doing anything that affects your game.

I was out coaching today, and I would say the referee was excellent and got very few complaints. On one of the rare contentious decisions an away team official came to talk to me, very politely, and he even said that he knew I wasn't allowed to answer the question he was about to ask me. He was surprised when I said I was happy to talk about it, and I used the same approach I would do as if I was a 4th official, in that it probably looks very different from here than it did from the referee's angle. Led to a great chat about refereeing and I'd like to think he has walked away with a different view as to how different it can be for referees, especially how things can look very different depending on what angle you are looking at it from. I would never throw a referee under the bus by criticising them in front of the teams, and any observer / match day coach that would be willing to do so should be reconsidering their position.
 
Thanks for the reply. It’s a tough old gig when you don’t have any assistants, particularly offsides but I’m used to that being a L7 ref for 10 years.

I decided to go for promotion to see how far I could go, but days like today make me question whether it’s worth the hassle!

Re the observer, he also told me that a goal hasn’t crossed the line and it absolutely did! Nobody on the pitch questioned it! He also questioned why I allowed the GK to pick the ball up from a throw without awarding an indirect free kick, when it was the opposition that threw it to him (player went down injured so the team threw the ball back).

I was really looking forward to being observed / coached so just feeling really deflated at how it went.

Apologies for the rant. I’ve just joined this forum to get it off my chest so thanks for listening!
 
@MGILLAN chin up mate.

You genuinely get good uns and not so good uns.

In the larger scheme of things. A coaching report is not catastrophic. Just arrange another (you just need two recommends).

Also before you go down the route of despair give the coach a chance to send across his feedback.

I have had a coach (and an observer) say they disagree with xyz, then the report comes across and it is a complete contrast to our post match discussion to my benefit.

If he doesn't recommend you for promotion. Give the report a week or a month then re-read it with a clear head. See what development points have been raised. Then see if they would benefit your game. Then get another coach out.

I've had coach observer/feedback, that has had feedback in it that is marginal gains "this didn't effect your match control however...".

At first it is typical to have a knee jerk reaction along the lines of "I was just feeling the vibe of the game man, you had to be in the middle to get it".

But you start to realise it isn't only about the game in front of you. It is about the next 100.
 
If i get a team "chipping away" but not hitting the threshold i get the captain in. "Next one will be getting the sin-bin".

Works more often than not.
 
I’m not a fan of “next one is ———“ on anything as a ref as it can box you in to either being over,y harsh or not doing what you said you would. I think there are better ways to deliver the message that aren’t as black and white. “Are you really going to make me start using the sin bin?”

I have had some success in whiny games with, “c’mon guys if you’re going to whine, at least whine about something that matters.” YMMV.
 
MGILLAN said:
Thanks for the reply. It’s a tough old gig when you don’t have any assistants, particularly offsides but I’m used to that being a L7 ref for 10 years.

I decided to go for promotion to see how far I could go, but days like today make me question whether it’s worth the hassle!

Re the observer, he also told me that a goal hasn’t crossed the line and it absolutely did! Nobody on the pitch questioned it! He also questioned why I allowed the GK to pick the ball up from a throw without awarding an indirect free kick, when it was the opposition that threw it to him (player went down injured so the team threw the ball back).

I was really looking forward to being observed / coached so just feeling really deflated at how it went.

Apologies for the rant. I’ve just joined this forum to get it off my chest so thanks for listening!
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Sorry to hear that, you can likely give this coach/observer’s report his behaviour deserves, file it.

However as previous poster commented, I suggest you re-write it, with three positives & three development points so you can at least benefit which is all that matters.

You should have better luck with your next coach/observer who will follow the process (3 + 3) which is in place for a reason.

Good luck, go into your next match with a positive mindset. 😁
 
socal lurker said:
I’m not a fan of “next one is ———“ on anything as a ref as it can box you in to either being over,y harsh or not doing what you said you would. I think there are better ways to deliver the message that aren’t as black and white. “Are you really going to make me start using the sin bin?”

I have had some success in whiny games with, “c’mon guys if you’re going to whine, at least whine about something that matters.” YMMV.
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I deliberately don't use the "next time..." bit as well. I might log those phrases though. Yesterday it was for absolutely everything; throw ins from the wrong place, foul throws, rolling ball at goal kick, too long over goal kicks, too long over throw ins, being injured, pretending to be injured, not being injured enough, me not checking to see if a player was okay after being injured!

It was just one of those relentless ones. Exhausting.
 
MGILLAN said:
Thanks for the reply. It’s a tough old gig when you don’t have any assistants, particularly offsides but I’m used to that being a L7 ref for 10 years.

I decided to go for promotion to see how far I could go, but days like today make me question whether it’s worth the hassle!

Re the observer, he also told me that a goal hasn’t crossed the line and it absolutely did! Nobody on the pitch questioned it! He also questioned why I allowed the GK to pick the ball up from a throw without awarding an indirect free kick, when it was the opposition that threw it to him (player went down injured so the team threw the ball back).

I was really looking forward to being observed / coached so just feeling really deflated at how it went.

Apologies for the rant. I’ve just joined this forum to get it off my chest so thanks for listening!
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Sounds to me like he was too busy with his own self-importance to actually concentrate on what was going on!! :rolleyes:

They're out there mate - unfortunately. :hmmm:

Like someone above already said - file it and move on. Your next MDC will hopefully do their job properly.
 
Viridis1886 said:
I deliberately don't use the "next time..." bit as well. I might log those phrases though. Yesterday it was for absolutely everything; throw ins from the wrong place, foul throws, rolling ball at goal kick, too long over goal kicks, too long over throw ins, being injured, pretending to be injured, not being injured enough, me not checking to see if a player was okay after being injured!

It was just one of those relentless ones. Exhausting.
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I had the exact same issues i.e. throw ins from wrong place, GK taking too long, FK from wrong place, accusation of foul throw constantly. The whining and relentless moaning over really unimportant aspects of the game was overwhelming. It started from minute 1 so it’s not as if I can pinpoint a particular moment that triggered the behaviour. A big learning curve for me and something an old ref once said to me 10 years ago, “expect the unexpected”. The funny thing is, prior to KO, the offending team were really nice to me! A bit of banter, asked how I was, if I wanted a drink etc etc. As soon as the match kicked off, they were a nightmare!

Again, thanks to everyone who has replied and offered advice. It’s definitely helped
 
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