Remuneration

Scotty Ref said:

This is going around in circles

The main issue here is that you are trying to equate refereeing with a ‘normal’ job which it is absolutely not. Referees apart from those in Select Group are not employed in the traditional sense of the word. The vast majority of referees would be classes as either self employed or independent contractors, the minimum wage does not apply to those groups.

@Kent Ref thats great your son has such a lucrative contract re travelling times and payments, however most people do not have such good conditions. Like most people I need to travel an hour each way for work and absolutely do not get paid for that time. Refereeing is the same, you are paid for the job you do when you are at the match, not for the travelling time etc, next you’ll be suggesting that refs should get an overtime payment when they’ve got to do the match admin the next day

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Kent Ref said:

On the basis of the current fees you quoted of a ref getting £90 for 5 hours of time thats's £18 an hour. £70 is £14 and £60 is £12 per hour.

This totally ignores the time / petrol element. The responsibility of reffing is also worth considering and the dedication through trainng etc.

We cannot always agree but there has to be some rationale over what TIME is worth and how that judgement is made.

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You are miles off base. If you did as you propose all leagues at least National League premier would fold/collapse simply because they can’t afford the fees of the officials

Kent Ref said:

So what do you think a ref or an assistant is worth - per hour? And what is your logic for that?

You're saying i'm wrong, which is fine, but not making a suggestion as to the answer to the question.

We all have a way to decide our worth v the task expected.

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i have already indicated in previous threads what I think. Things are fine as they are and the Leagues/FA will review their fees on a yearly basis. If the officials are not happy they can move on.

David G said:

You are miles off base. If you did as you propose all leagues at least National League premier would fold/collapse simply because they can’t afford the fees of the officials

i have already indicated in previous threads what I think. Things are fine as they are and the Leagues/FA will review their fees on a yearly basis. If the officials are not happy they can move on.

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I've just re-read your posts but you've not quoted any figures. I'm not a mindreader.

I work is £ per hour as that makes things easier to judge.

When i employed people i had to judge if their request for a pay rise was fair and this starting figure was the first part of the process.

Maybe you could tell me those thoughts?

Kent Ref said:

On a Saturday some of these assistants / refs are at the venue from 1pm - 6pm. That's 5 hours. So i make it the assistants should be on £150 and the ref - more.

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We still just talking step 2 here? Or do you think this should be the further down? Say step 5/ 6 which is roughly 3 hours... You think they should get £90?

Kent Ref said:

I've just re-read your posts but you've not quoted any figures. I'm not a mindreader.

I work is £ per hour as that makes things easier to judge.

When i employed people i had to judge if their request for a pay rise was fair and this starting figure was the first part of the process.

Maybe you could tell me those thoughts?

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I didn’t say I quoted them I said I indicated eg threads have been posted by others saying what the stats were and that they were happy with the fees and I agreed with them. You work per hour as most people do in full and part time employment. Officials have since the beginning of time been paid per game - and there is no reason to change - it is what it is. It’s also no good comparing to a fitness instructor - it’s not like for like. Compare leagues if you like, but not different sports. It is right and reasonable for the Leagues themselves to determine what fees should be for the officials and it’s then up to the officials if they accept or not. At the higher levels, if an official drops out because of the lack of fees, then another will gladly take their place.

Kent Ref said:

You've displayed that refs have had pay rises but what time is worth is a different point.

What this all boils down to is what is a ref's TIME worth, especially at the higher levels? How do me make that judgement and what is comparable?

I know fitness instructors are worth / paid £30 an hour in Kent. Are they comparable?

On a Saturday some of these assistants / refs are at the venue from 1pm - 6pm. That's 5 hours. So i make it the assistants should be on £150 and the ref - more.

This is without considering the petrol / travel time involved.

Giving up virutally a whole day for one game has to be valued greater than it is now.

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People are worth what their customers are willing to pay for them. Paying a referee £30 an hour would never be agreed by clubs, and as I said in a previous post, at grass roots member clubs have to agree any rule changes, including referee fees. I know from experience how hard it is to get fee increases through at AGMs, if you go in with a £5 increase you have a fighting chance, go in proposing doubling the fee and you'd be laughed out of town.

JamesL said:

We still just talking step 2 here? Or do you think this should be the further down? Say step 5/ 6 which is roughly 3 hours... You think they should get £90?

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I'm suggesting for Conference south, north and Conference premier.

Kent Ref said:

I've just re-read your posts but you've not quoted any figures. I'm not a mindreader.

I work is £ per hour as that makes things easier to judge.

When i employed people i had to judge if their request for a pay rise was fair and this starting figure was the first part of the process.

Maybe you could tell me those thoughts?

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I didn’t say I quoted them I said I indicated eg threads have been posted by others saying what the stats were and that they were happy with the fees and I agreed with them. You work per hour as most people do in full and part time employment. Officials have since the beginning of time been paid per game - and there is no reason to change - it is what it is. It’s also no good comparing to a fitness instructor - it’s not like for like. Compare leagues if you like, but not different sports. It is right and reasonable for the Leagues themselves to determine what fees should be for the officials and it’s then up to the officials if they accept or not. At the higher levels, if an official drops out because of the lack of fees, then another will gladly take their poacej

Kent Ref said:

I'm suggesting for Conference south, north and Conference premier.

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You’re out of touch. There are no such Conference Leagues anymore - National League. In any event, National League Prem is operated by PGMOL for officials, whereas NL North and South are operated by the FA. The fees will be higher on the Prem especially when most if not all clubs are full time.

This discussion feels like a rollercoaster!

I completely agree that referees can't be considered volunteers. There's a valid argument to be made that they deserve higher pay.

We all wish we were paid more for our work, but we live in a capitalist society where profit reigns supreme. Debating fairness is subjective, as fairness often depends on individual perspectives.

Having worked in public service, I've encountered many people dissatisfied with their jobs or pay. I've always believed that if you don't like the pay, work, or conditions, you should seek other opportunities.

If referees at the levels we're discussing are unhappy with their compensation, they would likely leave, prompting change from those in charge. The fact that there's no shortage of referees at this level suggests they're content with their pay.

Perhaps referees at this level aren't driven by money. Instead, they might be motivated by the challenge, the opportunity to officiate at a high level, and their passion for the sport.

The Ginger Ref said:

This discussion feels like a rollercoaster!

I completely agree that referees can't be considered volunteers. There's a valid argument to be made that they deserve higher pay.

We all wish we were paid more for our work, but we live in a capitalist society where profit reigns supreme. Debating fairness is subjective, as fairness often depends on individual perspectives.

Having worked in public service, I've encountered many people dissatisfied with their jobs or pay. I've always believed that if you don't like the pay, work, or conditions, you should seek other opportunities.

If referees at the levels we're discussing are unhappy with their compensation, they would likely leave, prompting change from those in charge. The fact that there's no shortage of referees at this level suggests they're content with their pay.

Perhaps referees at this level aren't driven by money. Instead, they might be motivated by the challenge, the opportunity to officiate at a high level, and their passion for the sport.

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A balanced post!

I believe that as there are so many referees waiting to 'step up' it's the FA holding all the cards.

Referees' desire to get promoted trumps reward for doing the job. That's personal choice but makes rates paid not an issue that anybody can challenge because there's always a handy replacement waiting. Possibly a sheep mentality.

Kent Ref said:

I'm suggesting for Conference south, north and Conference premier.

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So what would be a fair fee at to step 5/6 5/6? (up to 3 hrs travel expected 1 hr before game. Current fee on SW pool ref £70 all in AR £45 all in).

Or step 3/4 upto 2.5 hours travel (up to 4 hrs travel, expected 90 mins before game ref £65 plus expenses and Ar 45.00 plus expenses?

Should these referees not be renumerated to the same or close level in your world?

David G said:

I didn’t say I quoted them I said I indicated eg threads have been posted by others saying what the stats were and that they were happy with the fees and I agreed with them. You work per hour as most people do in full and part time employment. Officials have since the beginning of time been paid per game - and there is no reason to change - it is what it is. It’s also no good comparing to a fitness instructor - it’s not like for like. Compare leagues if you like, but not different sports. It is right and reasonable for the Leagues themselves to determine what fees should be for the officials and it’s then up to the officials if they accept or not. At the higher levels, if an official drops out because of the lack of fees, then another will gladly take their poacej

You’re out of touch. There are no such Conference Leagues anymore - National League. In any event, National League Prem is operated by PGMOL for officials, whereas NL North and South are operated by the FA. The fees will be higher on the Prem especially when most if not all clubs are full time.

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Most people would know the 3 divisions i referred to unless they were being flippant!

JamesL said:

So what would be a fair fee at to step 5/6 5/6? (up to 3 hrs travel expected 1 hr before game. Current fee on SW pool ref £70 all in AR £45 all in).

Or step 3/4 upto 2.5 hours travel (up to 4 hrs travel, expected 90 mins before game ref £65 plus expenses and Ar 45.00 plus expenses?

Should these referees not be renumerated to the same or close level in your world?

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I get £45 to ref sunday mens league. These refs are entitled to more than the £15 an hour i get.

Surely a much higher standard deserves a lot more than i get per hour?

On a good day i think my fee is fair.

The Ginger Ref said:

We all wish we were paid more for our work, but we live in a capitalist society where profit reigns supreme.

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Comrade!

My take on fees is that it’s bonkers that a level 7-5 ref will find it easier to cover their costs and “break even” than a ref higher up. Because the time and distance commitments shoot up ahead of the fees.

Kent Ref said:

I get £45 to ref sunday mens league. These refs are entitled to more than the £15 an hour i get.

Surely a much higher standard deserves a lot more than i get per hour?

On a good day i think my fee is fair.

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Supply and demand.

David G said:

Supply and demand.

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A totally ridiculous response.

I assume this is a joke?

Kent Ref said:

I get £45 to ref sunday mens league. These refs are entitled to more than the £15 an hour i get.

Surely a much higher standard deserves a lot more than i get per hour?

On a good day i think my fee is fair.

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There you go again with your pounds per hour.

Referees are not paid per hour they are paid for a match. In your case £45 for 90 minutes work. Travelling time and anything else is completely irrelevant.

Scotty Ref said:

There you go again with your pounds per hour.

Referees are not paid per hour they are paid for a match. In your case £45 for 90 minutes work. Travelling time and anything else is completely irrelevant.

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Apart from the standard of game how else can you compare apart for £ per hour?

Why is travelling time irrelevant to you? Would you do a Sunday league game if you had to travel 2 hours each way? No, of course not.

People reffing and lining at these high levels must be worth a higher match fee than me. They are more dedicated and putting more into it so they are better than me.

Kent Ref said:

Apart from the standard of game how else can you compare apart for £ per hour?

Why is travelling time irrelevant to you? Would you do a Sunday league game if you had to travel 2 hours each way? No, of course not.

People reffing and lining at these high levels must be worth a higher match fee than me. They are more dedicated and putting more into it so they are better than me.

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Correct me if I'm wrong but don't they get a higher match fee? And so a higher level referee is paid more per match than a lower level referee?

As for the Sunday league game with a 4 hour round trip, I wouldn't do that game, but I wouldn't do that if I was being paid for 4 hours of driving either.

I'm nowhere near the levels of National League, but I've done 2-3 FA Cup/Vase games as an AR. For all of those my base fee has nearly doubled thanks to mileage claims.

As a referee we're paid to referee a game - that's the skillset we have that we're offering up. I'm not being paid to drive to a game or to drive home afterwards, and if I get offered a game I feel is too far away I can always decline it.

If you had a system where clubs had to pay referees for the time spent driving to the game, then that fee could vary hugely depending on the route, traffic etc. That doesn't seem fair on the club (many of whom would struggle to get paying significantly higher fees on top of increased running costs), nor does it seem fair on referees either - why should I earn less than my colleague just because I live closer to the clubs in our league?

Ultimately, you have the right to refuse a game if you don't feel your being offered enough to do it. That's totally fine and you're choice. But equally, others are entitled to do games for a few lower than you'd consider acceptable because they value the experience/occasion/opportunity to progress higher.

Personally, I get paid more to referee Saturday morning youth football than Saturday afternoon OA, but I prefer doing the OA because I enjoy the challenge of it more, and it has allowed me to work on promotion, which would include lines at a much higher level.

OnlyUseMeWhistle said:

Comrade!

My take on fees is that it’s bonkers that a level 7-5 ref will find it easier to cover their costs and “break even” than a ref higher up. Because the time and distance commitments shoot up ahead of the fees.

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Agreed! It is indeed a bonkers situation, but it reflects the reality of many aspects of life.

I used to commute to London for work because it offered the best opportunities for career advancement. My daily commute was two hours each way, and the high travel costs left me struggling financially each month.

This was my choice, just as it is the choice of referees at higher levels who are fully aware of what they are getting into. It doesn't necessarily make the situation fair, but it is the reality.

As @Pwizardo mentioned, referees at higher levels are compensated more, but with that comes increased commitment expectations. This is similar to many professions. For instance, my executive director earns double my salary but probably works double the hours and shoulders far more responsibility. On the other hand, my apprentice earns half my salary, has minimal responsibilities, and barely works their contracted hours each week.

David G said:

Supply and demand.

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Probably the opposite (unless this is what you meant @David G?)

Plenty of refs available at the higher levels = games will always be appointed. Grassroots struggling to appoint to most games so CFA have had to increase the fee to attract refs?

The Ginger Ref said:

Agreed! It is indeed a bonkers situation, but it reflects the reality of many aspects of life.

I used to commute to London for work because it offered the best opportunities for career advancement. My daily commute was two hours each way, and the high travel costs left me struggling financially each month.

This was my choice, just as it is the choice of referees at higher levels who are fully aware of what they are getting into. It doesn't necessarily make the situation fair, but it is the reality.

As @Pwizardo mentioned, referees at higher levels are compensated more, but with that comes increased commitment expectations. This is similar to many professions. For instance, my executive director earns double my salary but probably works double the hours and shoulders far more responsibility. On the other hand, my apprentice earns half my salary, has minimal responsibilities, and barely works their contracted hours each week.


Probably the opposite (unless this is what you meant @David G?)

Plenty of refs available at the higher levels = games will always be appointed. Grassroots struggling to appoint to most games so CFA have had to increase the fee to attract refs?

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Good balanced reply. I'm glad you acknowledge th situation isn't fair.

There is something wrong when Sunday league refs are getting a much better deal than refs who are giving up 5-10 hours in a much higher league.

The whole thing is unfair but nobody can do anything as everybody looks out for themselves and if jonny don't like it his replacement is an e-mail away.