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Remuneration

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JamesL said:
Most employers don't pay you for time to travel. So if you want to take fuel out you to take the time travelling out.
It's also not true figures either because there's also allowable expenses that can be allocated meaning a divisible doesn't really work and it is all representative.

Never. Furthest mileage for me was 200 miles there and back. Longest travel time ~c.3 hrs.

This was an extreme example which I have only seen once.



A referee travelling 50 miles gets £20. But then he obviously doesn't leave 5 hours before the game he probably leaves 1-1.5 hours. So we should be around about the same quoted figures.


You actually work for 4.5 hours. That's all that you get paid for. Simple. So it's the fee divided by 4.5.

If you were a self employed brick layer, and you had to travel 50 miles to your job, guess what you don't get paid for it. The fact that you get expenses to travel is way more than most self employed people get (they may make amends for it as part of their charging structure or fees but that's how business works anyway).
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You seem be to changing the argument to suit. The example was 14.5 hours now it's 4.5.

If i am going 5 hours each way to ref / line a game i'm only making the journey to complete the task so travel time is a very considerable factor in the equation of fair compensation.

As a self-employed bricklayer you would have the POWER to decide on the terms of the contract. You would have a fixed location so you would have all the variables to decide the finances needs to make the job "worth it". You have the "tools" to make the deal right for you.

As a referee you don't have that luxury. All the fees / expenses are non-negotiable. You're dealing with an employer with one arm tied behind your back. It's the way it has always been. The FA have these refs on a piece of string with the lure of further advancement.

Referees at the higher levels (not the prem - they earn a great deal) are not being compensated fairly in my opinion.

Also when i used the example of a ref going 50 miles, i meant each way. I can just about use a calaculator.
 
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Kent Ref said:
You seem be to changing the argument to suit. The example was 14.5 hours now it's 4.5.
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I'm not changing any argument. If you want to take out the travel time then the work is 4.5 hours. If you want to include it then you have to cost the lot.
You are not working when you are travelling. You aren't working when you are sleeping. Not working = not getting paid.
Kent Ref said:
If i am going 5 hours each way to ref / line a game i'm only making the journey to complete the task so travel time is a very considerable factor in the equation of fair compensation.
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It is. And most referees at the level seem content. Oddly it's those that aren't or haven't been at those levels that complain about the fees and the time travelling. 🤔
Kent Ref said:
As a self-employed bricklayer you would have the POWER to decide on the terms of the contract. You would have a fixed location so you would have all the variables to decide the finances needs to make the job "worth it". You have the "tools" to make the deal right for you.
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A fair point. But a referee only has a choice of around 10-20 fixtures a week. Some closer some further than others, that is a very role specific restriction
Kent Ref said:
As a referee you don't have that luxury. All the fees / expenses are non-negotiable. You're dealing with an employer with one arm tied behind your back. It's the way it has always been. The FA have these refs on a piece of string with the lure of further advancement.
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You still have the power of choice. You choose not to do it if you're not happy.
Kent Ref said:
Referees at the higher levels (not the prem - they earn a great deal) are not being compensated fairly in my opinion.
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I think it NL Prem as rumoured is going to £300 plus expenses then that is more than adequate remuneration.
Kent Ref said:
Also when i used the example of a ref going 50 miles, i meant each way. I can just about use a calaculator.
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Of course but my counter argument remains. The time / expense received directly correlate so 100 miles is 40£ and travelling time is 2-3 hours. So whatever distance example you suggest the maths is the same.
 
The answer to me is really simple, if you don't think the money is enough don't do it. It never ceases to baffle me that it is almost always people that have never refereed in the NLS complaining about the match fees and expenses in the NLS. And that's probably because most referees inside the NLS aren't really doing it for the money, they value the experience and the chance to officiate higher level games more than what goes into their pockets.

On the expenses argument, travel time is surely irrelevant. Very few people get paid to travel to work, your working hours start when you arrive and end when you leave, minus an hour for lunch. I'm based in London but sometimes have to work in Chandlers Ford near Southampton, I leave home at 05:30 to get the 06:30 train from Waterloo and usually get home between 19:00 and 20:00. That's a long day, but I get paid exactly the same as when I work from home or in the London office. In a previous role I regularly travelled to Scotland, that meant a 4am start to get the red eye flight and not getting home until very late, or the overnight sleeper, and I wasn't paid any extra for either of those options. Even when I went to work in Asia for 3 weeks the flights out to Singapore and back from Tokyo were at the weekend and unpaid hours (although they were business class so not exactly a hardship).
 
RustyRef said:
The answer to me is really simple, if you don't think the money is enough don't do it. It never ceases to baffle me that it is almost always people that have never refereed in the NLS complaining about the match fees and expenses in the NLS. And that's probably because most referees inside the NLS aren't really doing it for the money, they value the experience and the chance to officiate higher level games more than what goes into their pockets.
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That answer says it all. If you don't like it, don't do it - a total cop-out. On that basis how would refs ever get a rise?

On the expenses argument, travel time is surely irrelevant. Very few people get paid to travel to work, your working hours start when you arrive and end when you leave, minus an hour for lunch. I'm based in London but sometimes have to work in Chandlers Ford near Southampton, I leave home at 05:30 to get the 06:30 train from Waterloo and usually get home between 19:00 and 20:00. That's a long day, but I get paid exactly the same as when I work from home or in the London office. In a previous role I regularly travelled to Scotland, that meant a 4am start to get the red eye flight and not getting home until very late, or the overnight sleeper, and I wasn't paid any extra for either of those options. Even when I went to work in Asia for 3 weeks the flights out to Singapore and back from Tokyo were at the weekend and unpaid hours (although they were business class so not exactly a hardship).

My son has a very senior job for a construction firm meaning he travels all over the UK and to Holland.

He in contracted for X amount of hours annually on PAYE.

If he needs to get the train to Glasgow/Edinburgh he leaves London at 9am. Meetings normally happen at around 2pm.

By 5pm he's normally done but they pay for a hotel / food etc.

He gets the train next day and gets back home by 3pm. Back to work next day.

When he's on-site in Holland (goes Monday mornings) he finishes by 1pm Thursday and he flies home. Friday is a day off.

When he signed his new contract a few years ago he made sure "travel time" was included in his agreement. He's never travelled for work in his own time BAR when he goes into the London office (his BASE - weekly) and that is his time used to get there.

You need to negotiate better as you are currently being taken advantage of. Your office in London is your BASE but you are being asked to travel away from your base to complete your work. Do you have a union rep?
 
Kent Ref said:
That answer says it all. If you don't like it, don't do it - a total cop-out. On that basis how would refs ever get a rise?

On the expenses argument, travel time is surely irrelevant. Very few people get paid to travel to work, your working hours start when you arrive and end when you leave, minus an hour for lunch. I'm based in London but sometimes have to work in Chandlers Ford near Southampton, I leave home at 05:30 to get the 06:30 train from Waterloo and usually get home between 19:00 and 20:00. That's a long day, but I get paid exactly the same as when I work from home or in the London office. In a previous role I regularly travelled to Scotland, that meant a 4am start to get the red eye flight and not getting home until very late, or the overnight sleeper, and I wasn't paid any extra for either of those options. Even when I went to work in Asia for 3 weeks the flights out to Singapore and back from Tokyo were at the weekend and unpaid hours (although they were business class so not exactly a hardship).

My son has a very senior job for a construction firm meaning he travels all over the UK and to Holland.

He in contracted for X amount of hours annually on PAYE.

If he needs to get the train to Glasgow/Edinburgh he leaves London at 9am. Meetings normally happen at around 2pm.

By 5pm he's normally done but they pay for a hotel / food etc.

He gets the train next day and gets back home by 3pm. Back to work next day.

When he's on-site in Holland (goes Monday mornings) he finishes by 1pm Thursday and he flies home. Friday is a day off.

When he signed his new contract a few years ago he made sure "travel time" was included in his agreement. He's never travelled for work in his own time BAR when he goes into the London office (his BASE - weekly) and that is his time used to get there.

You need to negotiate better as you are currently being taken advantage of. Your office in London is your BASE but you are being asked to travel away from your base to complete your work. Do you have a union rep?
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You are displaying a trait that seems to have crept into a large number of people in this country, being insulted or offended on behalf of someone else. I'm perfectly happy with my work arrangements, just as I was perfectly happy with the fees and expenses when I officiated in the NLS, I don't need anyone to fight battles for me. Just as I haven't seen any senior referees complaining about their match fees and expenses, rather it is just others being offended on their behalf. I just don't get it.

I don't have a union rep, no one at my current employers do as they are not recognised. I did in my previous company, and when they cancelled the final salary pension scheme guess what the union, Unite, did? Absolutely nothing. Which is exactly what they did when 90% of the IT jobs were offshored to India, absolutely nothing. Which begs the obvious question of what is the point of joining and paying your subscriptions.
 
@Kent Ref I feel obliged to agree with @RustyRef here. The fees in the NLS do not affect you, so why does it bother you? You are entitled to your opinion, but I don't understand why you are acting, as Rusty rightly said, insulted on others' behalf. The officials in the NLS will have got to that stage through dedication, motivated by ambition, not money. I can't imagine any of them are overly bothered, so why should we be?
 
There are teams in both NLN and NLS that have a very decent spectator average eg Scunthorpe United and Boston United in NLN, but there are also teams that struggle to get to 1,000, yet the Match Fees are exactly the same, which is as it should be. So, it is the clubs who pay the officials and they need to be able to afford paying 3 Match Officials, as well as their Travelling expenses. They will agree each season what those fees will be and has to my knowledge always been the case & how it should be. Just as an aside, the Match Fee for an Observer is the same in a Supply League, as it is in Contributory League football & National League North/South, with the exception that for NLN/S, Observers can claim mileage/travelling expenses because usually distance is at least double if not quadruple the distance of Supply League/Contrib.
 
Worth also adding that when I came off from L3 in 2015 the step 1 match fees were £49 for assistants and £28.50 for 4th officials, so it isn't as if the fees have been frozen for years. They are now £90 and £60, that's an 83% increase for ARs and 72% for fourth officials, around 8 to 9% year on year.

For step 2, looking back the AR fee was £34 when I last did a game at that level in 2013, it is now £70 so a 106% increase in 11 years. I really don't see an issue here, people not involved at that level are getting flustered about low match fees that have actually increased well in excess of inflation, even taking into account the high rates of the past year. Using actual inflation rates, £34 in 2013 is now £46.06 (fee is £70), £49 in 2015 is now £65.40 (fee is £90) and £28.50 in 2015 is now £37.50 (fee is £60), all based on CPI.
 
RustyRef said:
You are displaying a trait that seems to have crept into a large number of people in this country, being insulted or offended on behalf of someone else. I'm perfectly happy with my work arrangements, just as I was perfectly happy with the fees and expenses when I officiated in the NLS, I don't need anyone to fight battles for me. Just as I haven't seen any senior referees complaining about their match fees and expenses, rather it is just others being offended on their behalf. I just don't get it.

I don't have a union rep, no one at my current employers do as they are not recognised. I did in my previous company, and when they cancelled the final salary pension scheme guess what the union, Unite, did? Absolutely nothing. Which is exactly what they did when 90% of the IT jobs were offshored to India, absolutely nothing. Which begs the obvious question of what is the point of joining and paying your subscriptions.
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Interesting reply with some of my points ignored.

We will not always agree and just because something does not affect me directly it doesn't mean i cannot ask why a ref is not fairly paid.

I am of the opinion a referee a grass roots is worth at least £20 an hour minimum.

Ergo a referee a LOT higher up has to be worth £30 an hour minimum.

I am sorry your union let you down. Historically i welcomed a union into my business and they were generally fair when i had to deal with them with just one exception.

If you are travelling for your work in your own time on a regular basis you need to have a word. When my son sorted his contract he got advice from me and from an employment solicitor and as a result he is very happy.

Have a lovely summer.
 
You are saying a ref is not fairly paid. The comments being put to you are that they are fairly paid. As for your point concerning hourly pay rate, rather than per game - that’s just ridiculous imo.
 
This is going around in circles 😂

The main issue here is that you are trying to equate refereeing with a ‘normal’ job which it is absolutely not. Referees apart from those in Select Group are not employed in the traditional sense of the word. The vast majority of referees would be classes as either self employed or independent contractors, the minimum wage does not apply to those groups.

@Kent Ref thats great your son has such a lucrative contract re travelling times and payments, however most people do not have such good conditions. Like most people I need to travel an hour each way for work and absolutely do not get paid for that time. Refereeing is the same, you are paid for the job you do when you are at the match, not for the travelling time etc, next you’ll be suggesting that refs should get an overtime payment when they’ve got to do the match admin the next day 😂
 
Scotty Ref said:
Referees apart from those in Select Group are not employed in the traditional sense of the word
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Even Select Group officials aren't employed officially. PGMOL maintain that all referees, regardless of level, are self employed. The difference is the pay standard, but I completely agree with everything else you said in that post!
 
You are saying a ref is not fairly paid. The comments being put to you are that they are fairly paid. As for your point concerning hourly pay rate, rather than per game - that’s just ridiculous ino
Scotty Ref said:
This is going around in circles 😂

The main issue here is that you are trying to equate refereeing with a ‘normal’ job which it is absolutely not. Referees apart from those in Select Group are not employed in the traditional sense of the word. The vast majority of referees would be classes as either self employed or independent contractors, the minimum wage does not apply to those groups.

@Kent Ref thats great your son has such a lucrative contract re travelling times and payments, however most people do not have such good conditions. Like most people I need to travel an hour each way for work and absolutely do not get paid for that time. Refereeing is the same, you are paid for the job you do when you are at the match, not for the travelling time etc, next you’ll be suggesting that refs should get an overtime payment when they’ve got to do the match admin the next day 😂
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Exactly.
 
Scotty Ref said:
This is going around in circles 😂

The main issue here is that you are trying to equate refereeing with a ‘normal’ job which it is absolutely not. Referees apart from those in Select Group are not employed in the traditional sense of the word. The vast majority of referees would be classes as either self employed or independent contractors, the minimum wage does not apply to those groups.

@Kent Ref thats great your son has such a lucrative contract re travelling times and payments, however most people do not have such good conditions. Like most people I need to travel an hour each way for work and absolutely do not get paid for that time. Refereeing is the same, you are paid for the job you do when you are at the match, not for the travelling time etc, next you’ll be suggesting that refs should get an overtime payment when they’ve got to do the match admin the next day 😂
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Exactly.
 
Kent Ref said:
Interesting reply with some of my points ignored.

We will not always agree and just because something does not affect me directly it doesn't mean i cannot ask why a ref is not fairly paid.

I am of the opinion a referee a grass roots is worth at least £20 an hour minimum.

Ergo a referee a LOT higher up has to be worth £30 an hour minimum.

I am sorry your union let you down. Historically i welcomed a union into my business and they were generally fair when i had to deal with them with just one exception.

If you are travelling for your work in your own time on a regular basis you need to have a word. When my son sorted his contract he got advice from me and from an employment solicitor and as a result he is very happy.

Have a lovely summer.
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I've proved from the stats I've posted that referees are more than fairly paid, with the match fees massively outstripping inflation at steps 1 and 2. The evidence is there to see, it isn't an opinion, it is a fact backed by clear, unequivocal evidence.

Grass roots is different as each league controls the fee, and the member clubs have to vote on any proposed increase. If the clubs say no at the AGM the fee doesn't get increased, then down to the referees as to whether they want to vote with their feet and move to a different league. Can't speak for all leagues, but the fee in my local league has gone from £30 to £40 in the past 8 years, that is, just, in line with inflation.

It is great that your son has that in his contract, not surprising though if they are asking people to travel from London to Scotland for a meeting as short as 3 hours, hardly an efficient business process, especially given the ludicrous cost of those train journeys. I knew the situation when I started the current job a couple of years ago, the company and the rest of my team are based in Eastleigh, they agreed I could work out of the Corporate HQ in London but on the basis I would need to travel now and again to the South. I'm generally only asked to travel for an all day event, for shorter meetings we will use a hybrid event, which is very efficient now with Teams and advanced meeting room devices. I work for a huge company with over 13,000 staff based in head offices, everyone has the same contract, at least in terms of travel policies. One person asking to have his or her contract changed to be paid for travel time would be told that it is in their contract, if they don't like it they can find alternative employment. And they would struggle to find any alternative employment that pays them to travel, I don't personally know anyone that gets paid for travelling to work.
 
RustyRef said:
I've proved from the stats I've posted that referees are more than fairly paid, with the match fees massively outstripping inflation at steps 1 and 2. The evidence is there to see, it isn't an opinion, it is a fact backed by clear, unequivocal evidence.

Grass roots is different as each league controls the fee, and the member clubs have to vote on any proposed increase. If the clubs say no at the AGM the fee doesn't get increased, then down to the referees as to whether they want to vote with their feet and move to a different league. Can't speak for all leagues, but the fee in my local league has gone from £30 to £40 in the past 8 years, that is, just, in line with inflation.

It is great that your son has that in his contract, not surprising though if they are asking people to travel from London to Scotland for a meeting as short as 3 hours, hardly an efficient business process, especially given the ludicrous cost of those train journeys. I knew the situation when I started the current job a couple of years ago, the company and the rest of my team are based in Eastleigh, they agreed I could work out of the Corporate HQ in London but on the basis I would need to travel now and again to the South. I'm generally only asked to travel for an all day event, for shorter meetings we will use a hybrid event, which is very efficient now with Teams and advanced meeting room devices. I work for a huge company with over 13,000 staff based in head offices, everyone has the same contract, at least in terms of travel policies. One person asking to have his or her contract changed to be paid for travel time would be told that it is in their contract, if they don't like it they can find alternative employment. And they would struggle to find any alternative employment that pays them to travel, I don't personally know anyone that gets paid for travelling to work.
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You've displayed that refs have had pay rises but what time is worth is a different point.

What this all boils down to is what is a ref's TIME worth, especially at the higher levels? How do me make that judgement and what is comparable?

I know fitness instructors are worth / paid £30 an hour in Kent. Are they comparable?

On a Saturday some of these assistants / refs are at the venue from 1pm - 6pm. That's 5 hours. So i make it the assistants should be on £150 and the ref - more.

This is without considering the petrol / travel time involved.

Giving up virutally a whole day for one game has to be valued greater than it is now.
 
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On the basis of the current fees you quoted of a ref getting £90 for 5 hours of time thats's £18 an hour. £70 is £14 and £60 is £12 per hour.

This totally ignores the time / petrol element. The responsibility of reffing is also worth considering and the dedication through trainng etc.

We cannot always agree but there has to be some rationale over what TIME is worth and how that judgement is made.
 
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Scotty Ref said:
This is going around in circles 😂

The main issue here is that you are trying to equate refereeing with a ‘normal’ job which it is absolutely not. Referees apart from those in Select Group are not employed in the traditional sense of the word. The vast majority of referees would be classes as either self employed or independent contractors, the minimum wage does not apply to those groups.

@Kent Ref thats great your son has such a lucrative contract re travelling times and payments, however most people do not have such good conditions. Like most people I need to travel an hour each way for work and absolutely do not get paid for that time. Refereeing is the same, you are paid for the job you do when you are at the match, not for the travelling time etc, next you’ll be suggesting that refs should get an overtime payment when they’ve got to do the match admin the next day
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Kent Ref said:
On the basis of the current fees you quoted of a ref getting £90 for 5 hours of time thats's £18 an hour. £70 is £14 and £60 is £12 per hour.

This totally ignores the time / petrol element. The responsibility of reffing is also worth considering and the dedication through trainng etc.

We cannot always agree but there has to be some rationale over what TIME is worth and how that judgement is made.
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You are miles off base. If you did as you propose all leagues at least below National League premier would fold/collapse simply because they can’t afford the fees of the officials.
 
David G said:
You are miles off base. If you did as you propose all leagues at least below National League premier would fold/collapse simply because they can’t afford the fees of the officials.
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So what do you think a ref or an assistant is worth - per hour? And what is your logic for that?

You're saying i'm wrong, which is fine, but not making a suggestion as to the answer to the question.

We all have a way to decide our worth v the task expected.
 
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