Man U v Spurs
- Thread starter lincs22
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I personally think SFP. He’s got 0% chance of playing the ball, and he’s just thrown himself at the player in frustration at full sprint when realistically, a trip could have sufficed if he just wanted to stop the attack. The intent for me wasn’t to just stop the attack, it was to also hurt the man
Going SFP there, Shaw knows what he's doing and we've seen similar tackles been punished with reds.
All in all, I don't think Taylor will be entirely satisfied with today, I felt both Lamela and Martial should have been off. Am not sure both critical match incidents were wrong, just leaning the other way on both.
Not sure United don't concede six with 11 on the field, mind. They look awful except for Bruno
All in all, I don't think Taylor will be entirely satisfied with today, I felt both Lamela and Martial should have been off. Am not sure both critical match incidents were wrong, just leaning the other way on both.
Not sure United don't concede six with 11 on the field, mind. They look awful except for Bruno
100% a red card for Shaw, no attempt whatsoever to play a ball that wasn't even close to being playable distance. I would argue it is VC rather than SFP as not a challenge for the ball and more a case of just kicking an opponent, but either way he should have gone.
howard_webb
Well-Known Member
I would go VC not a chance Shaw can play the ball it's not in playing distance to him
deusex
RefChat Addict
I'm not sure having 0% chance of playing the ball matters at all. A tactical ankle tap where you have 0% chance of playing the ball is going to be YC every time.
Surely the only consideration is did he:
1. endanger the safety of an opponent
2. use excessive force or brutality against an opponent when not challenging for the ball
VAR shambles on the Martial/Lamela incident. Both RC or both YC.
Surely the only consideration is did he:
1. endanger the safety of an opponent
2. use excessive force or brutality against an opponent when not challenging for the ball
VAR shambles on the Martial/Lamela incident. Both RC or both YC.
socal lurker
RefChat Addict
Presumably because the VAR did not recommend it. The VAR should be checking every possible send off, and the R waiting for an all clear from the VAR before starting play. Note that the VAR cannot recommend (nor can the R decide) on doing an on field review for a possible 2Ct—only if there is a belief there was a clear error in not giving a straight red. (But if there is an OFR for a straight red, the R can decide to give a caution instead.
it does for the people who think its SFP as it obviously cannot be.
In real time I couldn’t sell SFP to myself on that challenge. No question it was a deliberate don’t-give-a-damn foul but that seemed all.
On the reverse angle replay I’m more sympathetic to the argument but still not sure I’d call it as SFP. There’s an element of doubt in my mind. I have to be 100% certain and that sways me to caution.
On the reverse angle replay I’m more sympathetic to the argument but still not sure I’d call it as SFP. There’s an element of doubt in my mind. I have to be 100% certain and that sways me to caution.
Kes
I'll Decide ...
I'd go with the OP's view of it personally.
It wasn't a challenge. Shaw simply runs in from behind and left and kicks him. The ball nowhere near. Do that when you're stationary and it's a VC red every time. Why on earth should it be different because both players happen to be running?
On my grass roots field - that's definitely ending in a dismissal.
I think Solskjaer's reaction on Shaw's challenge says it all, he immediately puts his head in his hands as he thinks they are going down to nine players. It is Shaw's eyes that do it as well, albeit only on the replay, he realises he isn't getting anywhere near to stopping the attack, looks away from the ball to the attacker, then just scythes him down. That just has to be violent conduct as he is intentionally kicking an opponent without making any attempt to play the ball.
As with the debate we had when Xhaka did this a few seasons ago, there is maaaaaaaaaybe a case for VC if you consider this a kick rather than a trip. Call it a trip and I don't think you're close to a red card. And to make that distinction, you're getting into the murky world of trying to judge his intent.
Personally, I don't feel that VC can be applied purely based on the tactical nature of the tackle. Standing trip or pull off the ball and I don't think anyone is calling for red. It's only because he's gone to ground in order to commit the foul that it looks forceful. And is that amount of force excessive? The answer there depends what you're comparing it to.
Excessive compared to what he'd expect to receive running along away from the ball? Yes
Excessive compared to what was required to knock him over? No
Excessive compared to the amount of force that would have been used in a normal challenge? Again, I'd say no
And certainly none of it comes close to meeting the "brutality" clause.
So overall, I think I struggle to actually justify more than yellow. I'd like to see this clarified in favour of a red card, as it certainly "feels" red, but unless it's a very unpleasant tackle, I don't think the laws currently support red here.
Don't call it a trip then.
How about "not a genuine attempt to play the ball" as a criterion? Excessive force is a stupid criterion anyway for exactly the reasons you've given (excessive compared to what?) but it would be daft to justify it by saying "it's not excessive if it's the only way to stop an opponent".
Didn't the Xhaka one get overturned as well?
For me this is a reckless foul.
Whilst not a direct challenge for the ball the fouled player is in possession so I'd be moving away from VC and looking at SFP anyway if I thought this was excessive force or endangering safety (I don't).
Do I want this to be a red card? Probably not. Tactical fouls have long been a part of the game, and if I was a United fan I'd want my defender to make that foul. And if it was at the other end, as a spurs fan I'd want my player to make that foul.. And if I was the defender I would probably make it, and if I was an attacker, I'd expect it. He hasn't put Moura in any danger by doing it, he has just cynically brought him down to prevent a promising attack and has took one for the team.. Again, a long standing and relatively accepted part of the game.
Unless the lawmakers truly want to outlaw this type of foul then I would expect a yellow here, and a red I would expect to be overturned either by VAR or the appeals process.
For me this is a reckless foul.
Whilst not a direct challenge for the ball the fouled player is in possession so I'd be moving away from VC and looking at SFP anyway if I thought this was excessive force or endangering safety (I don't).
Do I want this to be a red card? Probably not. Tactical fouls have long been a part of the game, and if I was a United fan I'd want my defender to make that foul. And if it was at the other end, as a spurs fan I'd want my player to make that foul.. And if I was the defender I would probably make it, and if I was an attacker, I'd expect it. He hasn't put Moura in any danger by doing it, he has just cynically brought him down to prevent a promising attack and has took one for the team.. Again, a long standing and relatively accepted part of the game.
Unless the lawmakers truly want to outlaw this type of foul then I would expect a yellow here, and a red I would expect to be overturned either by VAR or the appeals process.
I think any referee is entitled to judge it trip or kick, as they see fit. The point of the rest of the post is that even if you do want to judge it a kick, I still don't think it qualifies for "excess force" as defined in the VC section.
And it might be SPA but it's definitely not DOGSO and it's not in the box, so I'm not sure why you're trying to disagree with me by quoting other random snippets of law?
Fact is, if this was a world Cup final, 93rd minute, and he doesn't make this foul and it leads to a goal you lose 1-0. You wouldn't be happy.
Likewise, you're winning 1-0 and he commits this foul, leads to world Cup win, he is a hero.
It's not a red card offence. Never has been. Probably never will be.
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