Open Age A difficult weekend

[norfolkref]

Just having a write up of my weekends matches. Saturday - Anglian Combination Div4S - mid table clash, arrived in good time, the home Club are an improved side apparently had a previous bad discipline record. Was a bit apprehensive as they had been on social media moaning about last weeks ref. First half mostly okay, gave a penalty decision that was right on the edge of the area, last man - genuine attempt for the ball so gave the penalty with no sanction, was told it wasn't in the area blah blah, but then surely in my head this would possibly have met DOGSO criteria?

Second half, a different affair - tried stepped approach, at one point had three players and the captain in front of me. How do you deal with those players that don't want to listen? This was an "older" player, who does the typical "you don't have a clue, I've played football longer than I've been alive" comments, despite me standing in front of him telling him it's just a warning, can I turn round and say well if you want to be difficult just show the card? The second player was booked, and then sent off a short while later for 2 C1 FTs, and then the big flashpoint was a potential double red card. So i was parallel with the play, and what I think I saw was the player trip himself, and then the two players stand-up, have a few handbags and put their heads together. What apparently happened was he was tripped, not fell. I opted at that point to show both, with captains present 2 YCs for AA, and not VC.

Unfortunately the game got away from me, the manager told me from the side-lines that the game was gone, I did nothing didn't sanction him, I came over and told him to shut it, the club assistant who had made fantastic decisions in the first half unfortunately stopped doing his job because I overruled one decision he made...

Thankfully when the game finished I did receive some handshakes, this was soured when leaving I overheard the manager saying a report was going to be made. I asked and joked that I wasn't that bad, and he said that wasn't the reason - that a member of the away team had allegedly been racist to a home team player. When I asked for more information, this was said at FT close to the changing rooms, at that time I was still on pitch speaking to the CAR. What I can't understand is this has been said apparently by the winning team, to the losing team - none of the players who were carded in the game, but the manager couldn't tell me who had said it or who received it? I have done a EI and informed by RAO and RDO but sadly this has put a dampener on me as absolutely no need for this in society or the game!

Sunday was no better sadly, a normally quiet Ladies Div3 match, the away team were U16 girls making the step to adults football, unfortunately their behaviour and attitude was still that of teenage girls, and the home club which are normally OK - I made a incorrect decision about the placement of goal kicks, and the manager made a point to start showing me IFAB at half time . YC for dissent by action for the captain, trapped the ball between her feet and fell to the floor so obstruction, and when she looked up to see I had blown against her threw the ball away. The most difficult I find with this team is one player with neurodivergent needs, she wears a hoodie which the last 2 times I have officiated them I allow her to wear as long as it is rolled up under her shirt - however she always chirps up about decisions. I booked her for a reckless foul, to which she clapped me in front of her. I elected for a warning, despite giving her one previous to the YC for putting her hand out/deliberate handball. Curious if anyone else would have done this or just shown the 2YC?

I showed no cards for a player who after a jewellery check and must have been when subbed off , as I noticed her ears taped? I did tell her to go off and take them out. I had a player tell me I can't chew chewing gum on 3G? I didn't spit it out I just find my mouth dries out when I'm running lol. But I gather this comment was made after the cards I'd shown.

What peed me off the most was no handshakes from any player, players walking past me to shake managers hands? They won this game comfortably 4-2 as well! I mean ultimately I got paid, and it's a buyers market so I can easily opt to say to the RAO don't appoint me again but just curious how both games could have been managed better from my perspective.

And at least one positive - Sunday was game 25 in the middle so ready for promotion now when next window opens!

Just curious, Foul throws I often give 1 retake and a full reversal thereafter, is anyone else the same? (typically in the Womens game)

 

[one]

Granted I have not read the OP article yet, on what basis would you give a second chance for a 'foul' throw? Just noticed the very last few words in () while typing. I strongly recommend changing that sort of mindset.

 

[Archer]

Apply Law. Life becomes easier.

 

[norfolkref]

Typically find women's football has a lot more foul throws, less about the feet more the arms. Law 18 common sense applies really, don't tend to find the first foul throw until it's a certain player. Obviously I can switch it up and just give every foul throw seen but often or not the game would be stuck passing back and forth between throwers

 

[ChasObserverRefDeveloper]

Before you go to the Iber Cup, @norfolkref, you MUST study the laws and consider your application of them, as all the other referees there will expect that of you (and of all officials) as an absolute minimum.
Reading through your review of the weekend, the following are worth revisiting:
You awarded a penalty for a challenge which you are indicating met the DOGSO criteria, but as it was a "genuine attempt for the ball" you decided that there should not be any card issued. Please read through Law 12 before deciding how to answer.
Four players surrounded you to argue their case. Tell them (and indicate) "Captain only" and caution any who do not comply.
With the two players "putting their heads together" you need to decide whether there was a headbutt involved (by one or both). If so, red card.
With the manager who told you "the game is gone", an immediate final and public warning would be good practice. If he persists, yellow or red as appropriate.
In your second game, you made an error re the placement of goal kicks - basic law knowledge.
In respect of the captain's caution, were Sin Bins in operation? If you classed her action as dissent, the outcome would be a Sin Bin if in use.
Although your wording is not clear, if a player returns to the game with jewellery after you told the team/player "No jewellery", a caution should have been issued.
Chewing gum is banned on most 3G surfaces - a notice at the perimeter will advise you on that point.
Shaking the referee's hand is optional - the players usually do, but are not required to do so. The fact that all or most did not do so will make you reflect on your management of their game.
A foul throw in open age football should be reversed, not retaken. The option to retake is only applied at Under-8 and Under-7.
A lot of food for thought there, which is often the case in this forum.
Well done for sharing your weekend experiences with us.

 

[norfolkref]

I think you've missed some of what I wrote to be honest. I said should the penalty decision have been outside the area it would have been a DOG SO, not in the area? However it was and there was a genuine attempt for the ball so no caution was needed.

At no point was I surrounded by four players, I had 2 players and both captains in front of me as per stepped approach?
I did not see a headbutt which is why I disciplined for AA with a strong word with both captains that any further behaviour would mean cards.
I did come over and verbally speak to the manager at which point he settled down.

The second game both keepers were taking GKs from the centre of the 6 yard box, admittedly this just threw me off typically you see it from the corners of whichever side it went out. Obviously I was corrected which I then changed from the second half.

Almost all games at grassroots for us have sin bins, the sin bin was dissent by action.

And the foul throw is just what I have seen elsewhere. As above I find throw in etiquette particularly poor in that league, I have a game Sunday in the same division and I will be clear that it's just a reversal then.

It was more of a rant about the end of the first game and no handshakes in the second, as I quite often do rant away on here as the Mrs is sick of me doing it to her

 

[RustyRef]

Typically find women's football has a lot more foul throws, less about the feet more the arms. Law 18 common sense applies really, don't tend to find the first foul throw until it's a certain player. Obviously I can switch it up and just give every foul throw seen but often or not the game would be stuck passing back and forth between throwers

There are two obvious problems with that approach, the first being that they aren't going to get better if they aren't penalised for it. Secondly, in my experience of womens football they won't be best impressed if they new they were being refereed differently because of their gender.

 

[norfolkref]

There are two obvious problems with that approach, the first being that they aren't going to get better if they aren't penalised for it. Secondly, in my experience of womens football they won't be best impressed if they new they were being refereed differently because of their gender.

Good point I didn't think of it like that.

 

[ChasObserverRefDeveloper]

I don't think I missed anything from your post.
If the offence which resulted in a penalty award was inside the area, a challenge for the ball, and a DOGSO, why did you not caution the offender?
I mentioned four players based on your wording: "At one point had three players and the captain in front of me". In your reply you have now indicated that both captains were present, plus two players.
I was checking re the Sin Bin issue as your initial post mentioned a caution, but not the use of the Sin Bin.
Please read Law 12 about the DOGSO outcomes, so you are clear next time.

 

[one]

I feel that you missed my point about mindset. It is fine if you are a bit lenient in games with lower level of skill and apply common sense to help the game flow. But it is not fine to state this is "typically women game". Most women would be offended by that. The statement may be true in your case but it comes across as judging based on gender (stereotyping). To make the point, if you were only appointed men's game with low skill level and women game with high skill level then you would find typically men games have more foul throws. Associating low level skill with gender doesn't help them or you in the game. This may come across as PC but it is about helping approach every game with the right mindset (regardless of their gender), establishing rapport with players and getting a handshake even if they don't think you have had a good game, which is very difficult to get.

In terms of being lenient and applying law 18, it is important to understand that you still do it within the framework of the other 17 laws but you can't contradict them. For example in lower skilled games you can find some challenges not being careless but only a bit clumsy if it doesn't cause issues in the game. You can find many throw ins close enough to the required procedure that they are just on the right side and let play continue. But if you are giving a retake then you are openly admitting they did not satisfy law 15 and refereeing in contrast to the laws of the game by giving a retake.

 

[Kes]

I feel that you missed my point about mindset. It is fine if you are a bit lenient in games with lower level of skill and apply common sense to help the game flow. But it is not fine to state this is "typically women game". Most women would be offended by that. The statement may be true in your case but it comes across as judging based on gender (stereotyping). To make the point, if you were only appointed men's game with low skill level and women game with high skill level then you would find typically men games have more foul throws. Associating low level skill with gender doesn't help them or you in the game. This may come across as PC but it is about helping approach every game with the right mindset (regardless of their gender), establishing rapport with players and getting a handshake even if they don't think you have had a good game, which is very difficult to get.

I actually don't think he meant that at all and that nobody has any business assuming his "mindset".

The adverb is used to describe the regularity and incidence of something. If his personal experience of foul throws is that they occur more in the women's game then that's a fact.

No need to go down the SJW route with it.

 

[DJIC]

I do think we should think about some of our posts, in that they don’t come across as rebukes, the poster is acknowledging errors & asking for help & advice.

Otherwise we will eventually have no referees willing to post their experiences.

 

[norfolkref]

Admittedly I was wrong, have some food for thought for this weekend which I can obviously apply as best I can. I do appreciate the help and advice, and yes I am wrong in regards to retaking throw ins. It certainly wasn't a dig or a judgemental comment about the Women's game. On the most part I prefer it to the Men's game as the behaviour is far, far better. By the time I get home on a Saturday and debriefed myself I've normally got a headache I don't find this happens on Sundays.

I find this forum really helpful but I can see some of my comments are wrong which is 100% not what I meant, but can see how its written how it might be perceived.

On the subject of foul throws, what do I do if it gets to a point where you are literally reversing at the same point on the pitch?

 

[Archer]

On the subject of foul throws, what do I do if it gets to a point where you are literally reversing at the same point on the pitch?

Location dependent, but after two reversals I’d probably “miss” watching the taker for the third attempt tbh.

 

[one]

Location dependent, but after two reversals I’d probably “miss” watching the taker for the third attempt tbh.

Agreed. In general, for me, if I see myself calling more than 4 or 5 foul throws (from different throwers) in a game then I know I am applying the law too strictly and I have to relax it a bit.