Afternoon all, longtime lurker , and reader of informative posts from everyone, but it seems to me that behaviour in grassroots football is in the toilet. Repeated incidents today at youth level and even mini soccer has really got me wondering what's the point. I am 20 years in as a parent, club and match official and it's just feels like we have crossed a threshold. An U8s game today left a young ref in tears idiot managers and spectators, at u10s game complaints are going into county regarding spectator and managers behaviour , an u16s game , manager sent off for foul and abusive at the referee , chaotic scenes at the end. Before you worry yep I have been looking after the refs directly impacted , but the responsibility lies with these clubs/managers and the county fa's to sort this out, but I know that they won't. Paltry fine at best. I am so nearly done with this whole thing. Sorry rant over
Grassroots is dying
- Thread starter Doug
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- youth football
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Yup, I can confirm anything from junior to open age "amateur" leagues, they all think they can do anything and everything.
12 years in and now I'm really careful with the games I take. Had to sent a U13 off, after he called me an effing female dog.
Same at open age yesterday, 2 players both on yellow, they decided to give me their opinion of my performance calling me all names under the sun.
Straight red for both.
One of them questioned me about a player in offside position, from a goal kick!
Ladies and gentlemen we have reached the bottom of the barrell
12 years in and now I'm really careful with the games I take. Had to sent a U13 off, after he called me an effing female dog.
Same at open age yesterday, 2 players both on yellow, they decided to give me their opinion of my performance calling me all names under the sun.
Straight red for both.
One of them questioned me about a player in offside position, from a goal kick!
Ladies and gentlemen we have reached the bottom of the barrell
I have sympathy with you @Doug - I’ve been through a roller coaster myself lately. In short:
1. Two Open Age Sunday League games to start the season. Both with renowned, challenging teams - both games I had decent to pretty good games. I’ll be honest - didn’t ace either but still felt a better performance than the standard of football warranted.
2. As a result, and following EAs in both games, I thought why do I bother? Too many don’t deserve decent referees, so I’ll sack it off and revert to U16-U18, which robotically pays more than open age Sunday league round my way.
3. Informed Open Age ref sec with reasons (including copies of EA reports). Two weeks later (I was away last weekend) still no response from the RefSec.
4. Two games in the middle this weekend - U14s yesterday, U16s today - and coaches, players and parents gave me renewed hope for grassroots.
5. That said, my boy’s game this morning - U14s, County Cup - was abysmal. Oppo coaches, players and parents appallingly behaved. Ref - old boy, nice fella - missed two blatant refs for SFP, allowed dissent all game from oppo and generally lost control. Left me querying grassroots again until this afternoon’s U16s game, which was like a breath of fresh air.
Reality is, in my mind at least, this is increasingly a societal problem and less a football problem. I say that thinking the FA is largely impotent when it comes to managing participant behaviour, but we live in a world where behaving like a d1ck is epitomised and legitimised by our leaders, so it’s hardly surprising that our game - where behaviour has never been great - is getting worse in parts.
1. Two Open Age Sunday League games to start the season. Both with renowned, challenging teams - both games I had decent to pretty good games. I’ll be honest - didn’t ace either but still felt a better performance than the standard of football warranted.
2. As a result, and following EAs in both games, I thought why do I bother? Too many don’t deserve decent referees, so I’ll sack it off and revert to U16-U18, which robotically pays more than open age Sunday league round my way.
3. Informed Open Age ref sec with reasons (including copies of EA reports). Two weeks later (I was away last weekend) still no response from the RefSec.
4. Two games in the middle this weekend - U14s yesterday, U16s today - and coaches, players and parents gave me renewed hope for grassroots.
5. That said, my boy’s game this morning - U14s, County Cup - was abysmal. Oppo coaches, players and parents appallingly behaved. Ref - old boy, nice fella - missed two blatant refs for SFP, allowed dissent all game from oppo and generally lost control. Left me querying grassroots again until this afternoon’s U16s game, which was like a breath of fresh air.
Reality is, in my mind at least, this is increasingly a societal problem and less a football problem. I say that thinking the FA is largely impotent when it comes to managing participant behaviour, but we live in a world where behaving like a d1ck is epitomised and legitimised by our leaders, so it’s hardly surprising that our game - where behaviour has never been great - is getting worse in parts.
You're totally right. Sad but accurate.
I've been reffing over 30 years and there has been 3 major factors which have led to this.
1. The total decline in society and values. This is replicated on the FOP. The total feeling of nobody can be told they are wrong and the similar attitude of players / parents.
2. The role and attitude of county FAs and the total de-powerment of local leagues to run their own league's disicpline. League's use to have the power to remove teams / players but that's now long gone. CFA's are now more reliant on clubs than they used to be so often appease them with "letters of warning" etc as opposed to real sanctions.
3. When i first started reffing we were treated as "nearly untouchable" by the CFA's, even when we were wrong. This was not right. Look at it like a clock at 9 o'clock. This started to change (rightly) but instead of stopping at 12 o'clock the CFAs moved to 3 o'clock.
Now the players are innocent until proven guilty at commissions. Referees accused of poor conduct are guilty until proven innocent. This has happened twice to me but luckily i had a barrister representing me and i was proved to be totally innocent of anything at all (accused of making a racist irish noise was one - really! Took 3 months to sort out ).
We've gone too far and it aint ever going to improve. Local football is diseased beyond saving. As far as the FA is concerened anything below the conference league is irrelevant - unless they can tick some boxes.
A poor state of affairs and rotten.
I've been reffing over 30 years and there has been 3 major factors which have led to this.
1. The total decline in society and values. This is replicated on the FOP. The total feeling of nobody can be told they are wrong and the similar attitude of players / parents.
2. The role and attitude of county FAs and the total de-powerment of local leagues to run their own league's disicpline. League's use to have the power to remove teams / players but that's now long gone. CFA's are now more reliant on clubs than they used to be so often appease them with "letters of warning" etc as opposed to real sanctions.
3. When i first started reffing we were treated as "nearly untouchable" by the CFA's, even when we were wrong. This was not right. Look at it like a clock at 9 o'clock. This started to change (rightly) but instead of stopping at 12 o'clock the CFAs moved to 3 o'clock.
Now the players are innocent until proven guilty at commissions. Referees accused of poor conduct are guilty until proven innocent. This has happened twice to me but luckily i had a barrister representing me and i was proved to be totally innocent of anything at all (accused of making a racist irish noise was one - really! Took 3 months to sort out ).
We've gone too far and it aint ever going to improve. Local football is diseased beyond saving. As far as the FA is concerened anything below the conference league is irrelevant - unless they can tick some boxes.
A poor state of affairs and rotten.
I agree with much of that, but at youth (U14 to U18) level I’d still say 80% plus of games are, for the most part, a pleasure to ref and be part of.
I admit I live in a rural area and if I have games involving teams from my nearest major towns and cities - Southampton & Portsmouth - and you can pretty much be guaranteed the behaviour will plummet, with the odd exception.
Some things I can relate to and agree with, but I am afraid I don’t agree with your conference league comment - they certainly consider that up to and including Supply League/Steps 5 & 6 are relevant. However, there are certainly issues at grassroots level which not only the CFA’s in many counties under-resourced, but also inexperienced in some important departments.
Some things I can relate to and agree with, but I am afraid I don’t agree with your conference league comment - the FA certainly consider that up to and including Supply Leagues/Steps 5 & 6 are relevant. However, there are certainly issues at grassroots level which not only are the CFA’s in many counties under-resourced, but also inexperienced in some important departments.
Which ultimately is a sad indictment of the FA, who are absolutely loaded. There’s no reason the CFA’s should be under-resourced, though I accept that they are and it’s not necessarily their fault.
It’s not my understanding that the FA are loaded. In fact, my understanding is the opposite which is why many of the RDO’s across the country are mostly quite young - because the salary offered nowadays is nothing like it used to be so many of the experienced RDO’s and others left. Much of this I understood was because of the cost of Wembley whereby they were chasing their tail for quite a while and when things were on track, Covid hit. I’m not sure whether they got back on track especially from shows of Taylor Swift etc, & the debt now paid off, or whether they are still chasing their tail.
I don’t doubt the salary is low. But the FA’s latest figures show:
£550m turnover
£64m profit
£580m net assets
£256m cash at bank and in hand
They’re loaded.
Even in Walking Football and at 60+ age category ! I was contacted by a colleague yesterday evening for support and advice following incidents in the final of a small event. A player didn’t agree with key decisions made by the referee, since binned for dissent, continued so upgraded to a red card. Other team members join in resulting in two further Red cards! Match abandoned and even more abuse from team members after the abandonment.
In football terms that's peanuts. To fund all their activities and then provide money to the tens of CFA's? Remember we've had 4/5 years of record inflation
You’ve clearly done some digging which is fair enough, so I’ve done some. What your figures don’t show is re-investment whereby in. 2023/24 it was £194 million. Also the figures you have provided are from the FAs Strategic Report. The Auditors Profit & Loss Accounts do not get published!
Does the £64M figure suggest profit AFTER all outgoings?
It is stated as an Operating Profit. An operating profit is I believe a company's profit from its core business operations, while net profit is the final "bottom-line" profit after all expenses, including non-operating costs like interest and taxes, have been deducted. Operating profit measures a company's efficiency in its day-to-day activities, while net profit shows what the company has earned overall for that period. We do not know the net profit figure - not available.
Not quite true.
Inflation rose to a 41 year high (11.1%) in Oct 22 (Covid fallout) and has since steadily dropped. In May last year, it was back down to 2%. It hasn't gone above 3.8% since.
But inflation has been well over wage rises, and I imagine any rises in revenue for the FA, since!Not quite true.
Inflation rose to a 41 year high (11.1%) in Oct 22 (Covid fallout) and has since steadily dropped. In May last year, it was back down to 2%. It hasn't gone above 3.8% since.
bester
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UK wages continue to outpace inflation, figures show
Pay outstripped price rises by 3.4% between October and December while the unemployment rate remains unchanged.
www.bbc.co.uk
Yes in certain quarters but not over the whole period and certainly not in the football sector outside of pro players!UK wages continue to outpace inflation, figures show
Pay outstripped price rises by 3.4% between October and December while the unemployment rate remains unchanged.
Don’t let a few private sector outliers and public sector strike won pay deals hide the reality the FA are facing.
We're in danger of getting distracted from the wider subject of the thread, but their net profit was £49.7m, though factoring in movements and actuarial losses, their final profit figure after tax was £44.8m (all info from Companies House).
Whether they've got lots of money or not, it seems clear to me that they can comfortably afford to invest more across the country on discipline resource.