The Ref Stop

Grimsby V Man United

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Paul_10

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Great game to watch and I thought Tony Harrington refereed the game pretty well. I know there is some controversy with Grimsby's second goal and the 3rd goal which was disallowed for offside but the first one would of been very difficult too see for the on field ref and the offside is subjective whether Maguire made a deliberate play or not and it's not conclusive from the TV angles if the Grimsby player is even offside or not so I can accept both on field decisions really.

What did confuse me though and it's because Im probably wrong but I thought it's a yellow card offense if a sub entered the field of play without the refs permission? zirkzee for whatever reason came upto the Grimsby player who was on the floor injured and if my memory is correct it was near the 18 yard box so it's not like it's near the touchline and discretion can be applied.

I guess because he did get booked when he was on the field of play is probably highlighting this more than it normally would.
 
The Ref Stop
Haven't seen the Zirkzee incident. However the goal that was disallowed for offside was (IMO) 100% correct based on current guidance around Deliberate vs Deflection. Maguire's body movement was instinctive and uncontrolled and therefore classed as a Deflection, hence the offside flag.

Whilst overall I have little sympathy for players / commentators with regard to their sketchy overall law knowledge, on this topic it's easier to understand the confusion whilst IFAB persist in using the terminology "Deliberate Play". In regular English, Maguire's action was most definitely a deliberate play at the ball .. however not based on the far stricter LOTG criteria. :rolleyes:
 
Russell Jones said:
Haven't seen the Zirkzee incident. However the goal that was disallowed for offside was (IMO) 100% correct based on current guidance around Deliberate vs Deflection. Maguire's body movement was instinctive and uncontrolled and therefore classed as a Deflection, hence the offside flag.

Whilst overall I have little sympathy for players / commentators with regard to their sketchy overall law knowledge, on this topic it's easier to understand the confusion whilst IFAB persist in using the terminology "Deliberate Play". In regular English, Maguire's action was most definitely a deliberate play at the ball .. however not based on the far stricter LOTG criteria. :rolleyes:
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What about the distance the ball travelled though? It came a long way and it looked like he just made a complete mess of it, appreciate you've had the PGMOL guidance but it feels a real stretch to class that as a deflection. My immediate reaction was it was an act of incompetence (in keeping with the rest of the Man Utd performance).

Pretty sure Grimsby's second goal would have been disallowed if VAR had been in use. Very difficult for the officials to see, but it did looks as though it hit the goal scorer's arm before he scored and VAR would have zoomed right in on that.
 
RustyRef said:
Pretty sure Grimsby's second goal would have been disallowed if VAR had been in use. Very difficult for the officials to see, but it did looks as though it hit the goal scorer's arm before he scored and VAR would have zoomed right in on that.
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While I agree VAR would have probably disallowed the goal for handball, the VAR would have given a penalty against the goalkeeper for the clear-out of the Grimsby centre-half.

Overall, probable the same result.
 
Russell Jones said:
Haven't seen the Zirkzee incident. However the goal that was disallowed for offside was (IMO) 100% correct based on current guidance around Deliberate vs Deflection. Maguire's body movement was instinctive and uncontrolled and therefore classed as a Deflection, hence the offside flag.

Whilst overall I have little sympathy for players / commentators with regard to their sketchy overall law knowledge, on this topic it's easier to understand the confusion whilst IFAB persist in using the terminology "Deliberate Play". In regular English, Maguire's action was most definitely a deliberate play at the ball .. however not based on the far stricter LOTG criteria. :rolleyes:
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Watch from about 03:28 to see the "offside" incident

As you say, it was a "deliberate" action by Maguire in normal everyday language but it is trumped by the IFAB guidance.
 
lincs22 said:
While I agree VAR would have probably disallowed the goal for handball, the VAR would have given a penalty against the goalkeeper for the clear-out of the Grimsby centre-half.

Overall, probable the same result.
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Possibly, suspect they'd think long and hard about that though. Wasn't like other ones where we've seen keepers come out and punch attackers in the head with force, he more sort of bundled through him.
 
ChopChop said:
Watch from about 03:28 to see the "offside" incident

As you say, it was a "deliberate" action by Maguire in normal everyday language but it is trumped by the IFAB guidance.
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Genuinely would like to see this guidance. Every training video I've seen would class this as deliberate.
It's so obviously not a deflection I'd be surprised if even the clowns at FIFA would try and make it such.
I'm not sure this is even offside 20 years ago.
 
"deliberate play" is when a player has control of the ball with the possibility of passing, gaining possession, or clearing it, and the action is not an uncontrolled reaction to the ball. Key factors in determining deliberate play include the ball's distance from the player, the player's view of the ball, the ball's speed, its direction, and whether the player had sufficient time and coordination to make the play rather than an instinctive stretch or jump.

I don't think I'd describe it as 'instinctive' as he has time, but I do think he is strecthing for it and has not much chance of gaining possession or properly clearing it, personally.
 
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I think the deliberate play element was called correctly.

"The player had time to coordinate their body movement, i.e. it was not a case of instinctive stretching or jumping, or a movement that achieved limited contact/control"

Based on the above. Yes, overall it was a poor bit of play from the defender but ultimately it was not a deliberate controlled play.
deusex said:
Genuinely would like to see this guidance. Every training video I've seen would class this as deliberate.
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It is freely available in the LOTG. I can't recall all the videos but I'm pretty sure my interpretation from the training was this is, just, in the non-deliebrate side of the line.
 
Could the weather come into it a bit as well? The amount of rain that had fallen during the second half made it noticeably more difficult to make a controlled movement at times.
 
JamesL said:
I think the deliberate play element was called correctly.

"The player had time to coordinate their body movement, i.e. it was not a case of instinctive stretching or jumping, or a movement that achieved limited contact/control"

Based on the above. Yes, overall it was a poor bit of play from the defender but ultimately it was not a deliberate controlled play.

It is freely available in the LOTG. I can't recall all the videos but I'm pretty sure my interpretation from the training was this is, just, in the non-deliebrate side of the line.
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Even with that definition, you're left thinking "but he did have time to coordinate his body movement" but decided instead just to stretch out a leg. My usual beef - the laws get longer and longer but not that much clearer.
 
ChopChop said:
This is the most recent IFAB guidance that I can find and it goes back to July 2022 !!

Law 11 - Offside: ‘deliberate play’ guidelines clarified | IFAB

www.theifab.com www.theifab.com
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I'm not sure it's quite accurate to say that the most recent guidance is from 2022. The most recent guidance is from this year's laws, which contain the almost exact same wording as the 2022 document you refer to. The only difference is that they've added the words "(excluding deliberate handball)" after the words "Deliberate play."

Otherwise it's identical.
 
Peter Grove said:
I'm not sure it's quite accurate to say that the most recent guidance is from 2022. The most recent guidance is from this year's laws, which contain the almost exact same wording as the 2022 document you refer to. The only difference is that they've added the words "(excluding deliberate handball)" after the words "Deliberate play."

Otherwise it's identical.
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I actually said that it was the most recent guidance that I could find. I missed the fact that the text has been included in the current LOTG.
 
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