Spurs vs Liverpool

[Big Cat]

I've only just seen the highlights
Anyone who tells me that the Referees' scores count for anything, is therefore telling me Tierney is not fit to Referee a County game. That implication would be absurd
They're leaving KMIs to the true Referee of the game, located at Stockley Park, a principle that cannot work. One can only blame Mike Riley for that. He should be sacked after this weekend IMO. And someone should stop ex-professional Referees coming on TV and saying stuff that makes us all look very silly. (After my game on Saturday, I don't need any help with that!)

 

[Joshref]

Ooof. I agree with you in isolation, but taking retrospective action against Klopp and presumably not taking retrospective action against Kane, or Tierney/Kavanaugh for their poor performances would certainly not calm the situation down!

The usual excuse is "the referee saw it and dealt with it on the day". Well, you could maybe say that wasn't the case with Kane and the Jota penalty, but it's difficult to use that excuse for dissent! Punishing Klopp would open up the can of worms around why Kane won't be retrospectively punished - or they can just use the usual excuse and try their best to quietly move on.

Also retrospectively punish Kane as well? Although that would bring a lot of criticism on VAR for not noticing it.

Has a decision ever been retrospectively changed in the VAR era? A bit hard to justify it when it’s been looked at already by someone with video evidence.

 

[GraemeS]

Also retrospectively punish Kane as well? Although that would bring a lot of criticism on VAR for not noticing it.

Has a decision ever been retrospectively changed in the VAR era? A bit hard to justify it when it’s been looked at already by someone with video evidence.

Closest I can think of is when the GLT failed and they admitted afterwards that it was a failure of VAR not to intervene and give the goal. But that's not actually doing anything after, it's just admitting fault, I can't even recall that happening often, let alone on a decision that could practically be retrospectively changed.

 

[Tealeaf]

Just a reminder folks. This was a nightmarish mess.

Use of adjectives including “corrupt” when describing PGMOL or others cannot be tolerated however. Whilst they’re on social media and in the public domain, they’re often thrown around without thought to consequences. They may be considered libel, especially without evidence to back them up.

As staff we are responsible for the running of the forum and that means we’re the ones liable if it goes to that extreme. Please consider your post carefully. Not asking you to self censor, but think. Call out mistakes and errors but in a decent, adult fashion.

 

[PinnerPaul]

Closest I can think of is when the GLT failed and they admitted afterwards that it was a failure of VAR not to intervene and give the goal. But that's not actually doing anything after, it's just admitting fault, I can't even recall that happening often, let alone on a decision that could practically be retrospectively changed.

Apparently, according to the club (QPR), letters ARE sent to the clubs apologising for obviously wrong, KMI decisions.

 

[redref2005]

Just a reminder folks. This was a nightmarish mess.

Use of adjectives including “corrupt” when describing PGMOL or others cannot be tolerated however. Whilst they’re on social media and in the public domain, they’re often thrown around without thought to consequences. They may be considered libel, especially without evidence to back them up.

As staff we are responsible for the running of the forum and that means we’re the ones liable if it goes to that extreme. Please consider your post carefully. Not asking you to self censor, but think. Call out mistakes and errors but in a decent, adult fashion.

Ok I agree my words were poorly chosen but accountability is one that still seems to be fair as they don't have any and if we are not looking at nefarious work then I guess incompetent is probably fair instead. I mean how do you decide as a VAR to not review an incident that we pretty much in all responses believe the ref and the VAR have failed to make a correct decision (in fact two)?

 

[JamesL]

Ok I agree my words were poorly chosen but accountability is one that still seems to be fair as they don't have any and if we are not looking at nefarious work then I guess incompetent is probably fair instead. I mean how do you decide as a VAR to not review an incident that we pretty much in all responses believe the ref and the VAR have failed to make a correct decision (in fact two)?

You'll be in the prem in no time mate as you obviously never make any mistakes out on the green stuff.

 

[RustyRef]

It still feels to me like something has changed in terms of advice since the last round of games. There were loads of penalties given, some of which were considered "soft", could it be the clubs have complained and PGMOL have told the referees to raise the bar. If that is the case, and it is just speculation, I have to feel for the referees and VARs. It can't be easy changing your approach from one week to next, even worse for FIFA referees as they then have a different approach for those games.

And what I would say as well is these are not rookie referees making mistakes. Martin Atkinson has been one of the top referees for many years, and Paul Tierney has been regarded by some as one of the best performing referees in recent years, and he has certainly been regularly getting the big games. Chris Kavanagh on VAR is a leading FIFA official and generally a very safe pair of hands. As a manager if loads of my usually reliable staff started making stupid mistakes I'd be looking for reasons for that, or even potentially ask if it was something I was doing wrong.

 

[Kent Ref]

I've only just seen the highlights
Anyone who tells me that the Referees' scores count for anything, is therefore telling me Tierney is not fit to Referee a County game. That implication would be absurd
They're leaving KMIs to the true Referee of the game, located at Stockley Park, a principle that cannot work. One can only blame Mike Riley for that. He should be sacked after this weekend IMO. And someone should stop ex-professional Referees coming on TV and saying stuff that makes us all look very silly. (After my game on Saturday, I don't need any help with that!)

AS you say i think refs are showing yellows ASAP and hoping for intervention from the VAR people.

The Robertson incident was so obviously a red i can only think he showed yellow and hoped for help (as above).

 

[RustyRef]

I've only just seen the highlights
Anyone who tells me that the Referees' scores count for anything, is therefore telling me Tierney is not fit to Referee a County game. That implication would be absurd
They're leaving KMIs to the true Referee of the game, located at Stockley Park, a principle that cannot work. One can only blame Mike Riley for that. He should be sacked after this weekend IMO. And someone should stop ex-professional Referees coming on TV and saying stuff that makes us all look very silly. (After my game on Saturday, I don't need any help with that!)

That theory doesn't really work though, as in the last round of games there were a record number of penalties given, and most were given by the referee then confirmed by VAR.

 

[RefIADad]

And what I would say as well is these are not rookie referees making mistakes. Martin Atkinson has been one of the top referees for many years, and Paul Tierney has been regarded by some as one of the best performing referees in recent years, and he has certainly been regularly getting the big games. Chris Kavanagh on VAR is a leading FIFA official and generally a very safe pair of hands. As a manager if loads of my usually reliable staff started making stupid mistakes I'd be looking for reasons for that, or even potentially ask if it was something I was doing wrong.

This is where my mind is going as well. I look at referees like Taylor and Oliver. For Anthony Taylor in particular, he's a much better referee in UEFA than in the Premier League. He is a lot more decisive and cracks down on things. Look at how he sent Vidal off for a dissent 2nd caution in a UCL game. I don't know if he'd ever do that in England. Michael Oliver, rightly or wrongly, gave out two red cards in UEFA competitions this summer and fall that I'm almost 100% positive would never have been given in England.

Whatever is happening, it's coming from the PGMOL leadership in my personal opinion. The instructions are either lacking, or they are inconsistent. When you have this many referees having the same issues (particularly when some of these referees are doing very well in other competitions with different leadership), that means the problem is systemic or leadership-based. Mike Riley has some serious questions to answer about exactly what type of leadership he's providing at the top of PGMOL.

 

[Paul_10]

It still feels to me like something has changed in terms of advice since the last round of games. There were loads of penalties given, some of which were considered "soft", could it be the clubs have complained and PGMOL have told the referees to raise the bar. If that is the case, and it is just speculation, I have to feel for the referees and VARs. It can't be easy changing your approach from one week to next, even worse for FIFA referees as they then have a different approach for those games.

But the PGMOL surely can't be that easily influenced though, they just have to referee and use VAR as they have seen it and more importantly what the referees themselves are happy with.

Too me, the 2 penelties incidents were stonewall with the Newcastle the most stonewall one you will ever see. It's scary 2 referees cant see that is a penelty and then use some bizzare reason to justify the on field decision.

Same with the Liverpool one, the player did not stop, he slowed down in preparation for the shot, yes he may of guessed there could be contact from the defender but that is the defenders responsibility not to be so rashed. Again, stonewall pen.

Just because there's was quite a high number of debatable pens last weekend should not mean we set any imaginary bar higher for pens this weekend.

 

[RustyRef]

But the PGMOL surely can't be that easily influenced though, they just have to referee and use VAR as they have seen it and more importantly what the referees themselves are happy with.

Too me, the 2 penelties incidents were stonewall with the Newcastle the most stonewall one you will ever see. It's scary 2 referees cant see that is a penelty and then use some bizzare reason to justify the on field decision.

Same with the Liverpool one, the player did not stop, he slowed down in preparation for the shot, yes he may of guessed there could be contact from the defender but that is the defenders responsibility not to be so rashed. Again, stonewall pen.

Just because there's was quite a high number of debatable pens last weekend should not mean we set any imaginary bar higher for pens this weekend.

It has happened before, so don't think it can be ruled out.

 

[Mooseybaby]

The media loves to get in a frenzy if there's a weekend when there are penalties in several games and like to start pointing fingers and endlessly debating as to why they were given. Off the top of my head the only one I have seen recently that I thought was never a penalty was the James Madison one where he clearly threw himself to the ground and was almost horizontal before any contact was made by the defender. Considering VAR has overturned penalties where players have clearly been tripped and pushed in the back, amazed it wasn't overturned as a clear and obvious error. Whatever happened to the FA taking restrospective action against players for deceiving a match official?

 

[Big Cat]

The media loves to get in a frenzy if there's a weekend when there are penalties in several games and like to start pointing fingers and endlessly debating as to why they were given. Off the top of my head the only one I have seen recently that I thought was never a penalty was the James Madison one where he clearly threw himself to the ground and was almost horizontal before any contact was made by the defender. Considering VAR has overturned penalties where players have clearly been tripped and pushed in the back, amazed it wasn't overturned as a clear and obvious error. Whatever happened to the FA taking restrospective action against players for deceiving a match official?

Newcastle on the receiving end again. VAR has a Bell Curve of which Clubs have gotten a fair deal. By chance, Newcastle are the outlier this year. By chance (again), last year we were somewhere in the middle, on account that there were very few VAR interventions in Newcastle games. That's the way the cookie crumbles to a large extent. Newcastle have officially complained to the Premier League today regarding the fact they they are this season's unlucky ones. Although I doubt they used my thinking in their written gripe. The bell curve will be slightly biased towards the top end of the table, I'm sure, but that's just down to the pressure on Refs and the sub-conscious bias I talk about
Although I'm no statistician so won't be submitting a thesis on the subject. Just human nature. Nothing all that controversial. Only relevant over a long period of time. 'The Law of Big Numbers'. Rusty will be the first to concur

 

[Joshref]

Newcastle on the receiving end again. VAR has a Bell Curve of which Clubs have gotten a fair deal. By chance, Newcastle are the outlier this year. By chance (again), last year we were somewhere in the middle, on account that there were very few VAR interventions in Newcastle games. That's the way the cookie crumbles to a large extent. Newcastle have officially complained to the Premier League today regarding the fact they they are this season's unlucky ones. Although I doubt they used my thinking in their written gripe. The bell curve will be slightly biased towards the top end of the table, I'm sure, but that's just down to the pressure on Refs and the sub-conscious bias I talk about
Although I'm no statistician so won't be submitting a thesis on the subject. Just human nature. Nothing all that controversial. Only relevant over a long period of time. 'The Law of Big Numbers'. Rusty will be the first to concur

There is a great stats book about referees I got for Christmas last year that was a really interesting read that addressed this. I’ll dig around for it and find some stats to back you up.

Is a really interesting read

 

[Peter Grove]

It still feels to me like something has changed in terms of advice since the last round of games. There were loads of penalties given, some of which were considered "soft", could it be the clubs have complained and PGMOL have told the referees to raise the bar. If that is the case, and it is just speculation, I have to feel for the referees and VARs. It can't be easy changing your approach from one week to next, even worse for FIFA referees as they then have a different approach for those games.

I already mentioned this earlier on the thread, but that's exactly what Dermot Gallagher said happened at least, in terms of the guidance being changed (he didn't mention anything about the clubs being involved).

I don't know how close he still is to some of his former colleagues but I'm guessing he still talks to some of them so he may well have been privy to some inside information.

 

[Martiju]

I just read a really good piece by Dale Johnson (ESPN) about how the use of VAR has varied, how PGMOL has tried to learn from the Euros by imposing a 'high bar' and how C&O is now being interpreted.

An extract of the key issues:

The high bar appears to be robbing VARs of their personal judgement. If a referee describes an incident that even remotely fits the replays, there will be no full VAR review. It leads to a process where inaction from a VAR can almost always be explained by this process.

But recently there have been LOTS of KMIs. And some of these KMIs have come from really bad refereeing decisions. The referee's pitch decision must be key. But if the process is pre-weighted so far towards the referee it renders VAR impotent on some obvious decisions.

In all leagues, the ref describes the incident and the VAR sees if the replays match. In the Prem, it seems like if the replays remotely back up the referee then the VAR won't get involved. If you keep having loads of KMIs, especially major ones, this is unsustainable.

VARs need to give real advice to referees over these big incidents. We need better decisions rather than a false safety net. After VAR had been better this season, we've gone back to April when there seemed to be little logic to decisions.

The full Twitter thread is here, it's worth a read I think.

 

[Anubis]

Quick look at apts shows nothing for Tierney on Boxing Day, then Palace v Norwich.
then nothing in the next round.

If, and its a big if, this is linked to Sundays display, it would placate a lot of people if it was made clear this is the case. Bit of transparency.

 

[Paul_10]

Quick look at apts shows nothing for Tierney on Boxing Day, then Palace v Norwich.
then nothing in the next round.

If, and its a big if, this is linked to Sundays display, it would placate a lot of people if it was made clear this is the case. Bit of transparency.

Think all the festive referee/VAR choices was all ready made before the weekend games were played so no more than a coincidence.