A&H

Spurs vs Liverpool

RustyRef said:
It still feels to me like something has changed in terms of advice since the last round of games. There were loads of penalties given, some of which were considered "soft", could it be the clubs have complained and PGMOL have told the referees to raise the bar. If that is the case, and it is just speculation, I have to feel for the referees and VARs. It can't be easy changing your approach from one week to next, even worse for FIFA referees as they then have a different approach for those games.

And what I would say as well is these are not rookie referees making mistakes. Martin Atkinson has been one of the top referees for many years, and Paul Tierney has been regarded by some as one of the best performing referees in recent years, and he has certainly been regularly getting the big games. Chris Kavanagh on VAR is a leading FIFA official and generally a very safe pair of hands. As a manager if loads of my usually reliable staff started making stupid mistakes I'd be looking for reasons for that, or even potentially ask if it was something I was doing wrong.
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Pure speculation/random thought, so I'm not speaking this as the gospel truth, but the point is worth considering - apparently Chris K had a 'strange' game in the EFL immediately before this - foul/card threshold seemed very low and not a great performance a 'neutral' told me.

Do the PGMOL or indeed the referees themselves ever feel the need to take a break for certain referees?

We are always saying on here that we ARE only human and like players, make mistakes - so surely we also have good and bad runs of 'form'

Even the best players can't perform 9/10 every week, are the top officials expected to, regardless?
 
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How can they possibly be given a break? There are only 22 SG1 officials at the moment and every weekend comes with 30 duties that need to be filled (ref/4O/VAR for 10 matches). Yes you can chop and change across a weekend, but once you start to account for certain referees being unable to be associated with certain matches, plus injuries, plus the requirement to do their contracted share of EFL matches, there literally isn't room in the schedule to give Kavanaugh a few weeks off because his head has gone!
 
GraemeS said:
How can they possibly be given a break? There are only 22 SG1 officials at the moment and every weekend comes with 30 duties that need to be filled (ref/4O/VAR for 10 matches). Yes you can chop and change across a weekend, but once you start to account for certain referees being unable to be associated with certain matches, plus injuries, plus the requirement to do their contracted share of EFL matches, there literally isn't room in the schedule to give Kavanaugh a few weeks off because his head has gone!
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Maybe that's the problem then - no team in the world would get very far with an 11 man squad would they?

Oh and I didn't say his 'head had gone' - just that for whatever reason - illness, family, personal life - could be 100s of reasons - he is not performing at his very best. That's my point, isn't it unrealistic to expect perfection every week - same as my argument with VAR basically - we're chasing an impossible dream - refereeing perfection - it's not happening, with or without VAR!
 
PinnerPaul said:
Maybe that's the problem then - no team in the world would get very far with an 11 man squad would they?

Oh and I didn't say his 'head had gone' - just that for whatever reason - illness, family, personal life - could be 100s of reasons - he is not performing at his very best. That's my point, isn't it unrealistic to expect perfection every week - same as my argument with VAR basically - we're chasing an impossible dream - refereeing perfection - it's not happening, with or without VAR!
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Which perhaps goes back to talking about the leadership of the PGMOL. Have they developed the next generation of referees and given them a chance to rise up to the premier league?
 
cwyeary said:
Which perhaps goes back to talking about the leadership of the PGMOL. Have they developed the next generation of referees and given them a chance to rise up to the premier league?
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Very good point and also touches on the suspension of referees for mistakes question that someone else posed.

I agree, its impossible to 'rest' referees, for whatever reason, if the 'squad' isn't big enough.
 
GraemeS said:
How can they possibly be given a break? There are only 22 SG1 officials at the moment and every weekend comes with 30 duties that need to be filled (ref/4O/VAR for 10 matches). Yes you can chop and change across a weekend, but once you start to account for certain referees being unable to be associated with certain matches, plus injuries, plus the requirement to do their contracted share of EFL matches, there literally isn't room in the schedule to give Kavanaugh a few weeks off because his head has gone!
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Yes, but some of these are very rarely used on PL games. Rob Jones 5 games, Simon Hooper 6 games, Graham Scott 6 games, then you have the new ones like Gillett, Harrington, Salisbury and Brooks who have barely been used at all. Chris Kavanagh has had 9, Michael Oliver 14 and Anthony Taylor 13, and we need to remember that these are also senior FIFA referees so are getting way more top level games, with the travel that goes with this, than their colleagues who are rarely being used.

Not only is this possibly creating fatigue in the top referees, I find it hard to see what the succession planning is. Atkinson, Dean, Marriner, Moss, Friend and Scott must be getting close to hanging their whistles up. That's a lot of experience to replace.
 
RustyRef said:
Not only is this possibly creating fatigue in the top referees, I find it hard to see what the succession planning is. Atkinson, Dean, Marriner, Moss, Friend and Scott must be getting close to hanging their whistles up. That's a lot of experience to replace.
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I was having this discussion with someone yesterday incredibly and I couldn’t agree more. Select Group seems to be seriously lacking in this department.

You consider the 5 referees who have reffed more than 10 games this season. Their average age is about 45 (all except Oliver are over 40) and they’ve all been reffing for over 10 years in the Prem (except Tierney, who’s been reffing 7.) To an extent it makes sense. The most games go to the best referees and the best referees tend to be those with more experience. Not everyone can be a Michael Oliver and come through to Select Group at 25. But when there’s referees that have done less than 5 games this season it seems to make little sense

There is a problem. Looking below the top 5 Moss and Marriner have done 10 games, both are in their 50’s and have at least 10 years experience. It’s felt like the same old refs all the time for quite a long time now. I can’t find it, but Webb did an interview a few years back (might have alluded to it in his book as well) where he says Select Group when he first came through was a bit of a closed shop and almost becoming an old boys club. I’m hoping it doesn’t become the same again,

Which refs are really coming through at the moment? Oliver is the youngest of the top 10 refs, and to call him a ref “coming through the ranks” wouldn’t be true would it. I guess Kavanagh’s the closest outside the top 10 to be a ref coming through. Less than 5 years experience, 36 years old. Still, just feels there could be a problem when all these refs retire as Rusty said
 
I'm probably most confused about Gillett. You get Australia's #1 FIFA ref to move to the UK, he apparently excels in the EFL and then you give him a middle every 6 or 7 weeks?
 
santa sangria said:
He had that game that went a bit pear shaped a month ago IIRC
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Which is probably why the PL is running into this issue of finding the next generation. I think that was his second or third PL game ever. At some point you only can get PL experience by doing PL games.
 
santa sangria said:
He had that game that went a bit pear shaped a month ago IIRC
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Gillett‘s last two games 5 Dec Spurs 3 Norwich 0, 11 Dec Arsenal 3 Saints 0. I don’t think referee’s performance was an issue, in his defence might be a bit harsh to say either game went pear shaped after this weekend’s performances?
 
cwyeary said:
I'm probably most confused about Gillett. You get Australia's #1 FIFA ref to move to the UK, he apparently excels in the EFL and then you give him a middle every 6 or 7 weeks?
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He DID excel in the EFL - far and away the best official on a QPR game last season.
 
DJIC said:
Gillett‘s last two games 5 Dec Spurs 3 Norwich 0, 11 Dec Arsenal 3 Saints 0. I don’t think referee’s performance was an issue, in his defence might be a bit harsh to say either game went pear shaped after this weekend’s performances?
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I think it was actually his first EPL game - Newcastle-Watford - that some said didn't go that well. But that was his first EPL game. Not sure about other performances.

But that just goes to a larger point. Who objectively can expect someone to come into his first Premier League and blow the doors off with a performance? Did Webb have a great first game? Clattenburg? Taylor? Oliver? My larger point is that the expectation of perfection from all referees is simply unrealistic. I'm sure we all had nervousness, growing pains, etc. as we all worked our way up our respective officiating ladders. My first big school high school varsity match was not good. I got better at those games. My first women's collegiate Division 1 center was OK, not great. I got better.

The point is that the new guys need a chance, and PGMOL needs the backing to keep filling the pipeline.
 
As much as I have been criticising EPL referees, you need to consider that they referee with one hand tied behind their back with all the instructions they get on doing it a certain way. Set the bar high, no more of this or that. And as soon as they get used too it, the direction changes, the bar is too high etc. You don't know how much of it is their refereeing and how much of it is their employer's.
 
I wonder if it's part of the tax argument that PGMOL won, that referees are not employees, so they have to demonstrate that they aren't obliged to give regular matches to any referee.
 
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bloovee said:
I wonder if it's part of the tax arguement that PGMOL won, that referees are not employees, so they have to demonstrate that they aren't obliged to give regular matches to any referee.
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Maybe part of it, but only part - came across the judgement on the internet - and it was very complex, with many arguments on both sides.
 
PinnerPaul said:
Maybe part of it, but only part - came across the judgement on the internet - and it was very complex, with many arguments on both sides.
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In the Us, the decision went the other way in what the court acknowledged was a close question but the referees a level below the full time MLS referee were employees and thereby entitled to form a union.
 
RustyRef said:
Yes, but some of these are very rarely used on PL games. Rob Jones 5 games, Simon Hooper 6 games, Graham Scott 6 games, then you have the new ones like Gillett, Harrington, Salisbury and Brooks who have barely been used at all. Chris Kavanagh has had 9, Michael Oliver 14 and Anthony Taylor 13, and we need to remember that these are also senior FIFA referees so are getting way more top level games, with the travel that goes with this, than their colleagues who are rarely being used.
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I know I’ve already replied to you once but I decided to do some more research. Clement Turpin was voted by the France Federation as their best referee, has refereed at all the major tournaments he can (Euros, WC, Olympics) and has been a FIFA referee for over 10 years. He got given the Europa League final as well last year between United and Villarreal, having a good performance in what was essentially a dull game.

He refereed just 18 games in Ligue 1 last season. That’s how the French do things. No referee in France reffed more than 20 Ligue 1 games last season. In comparison, 12 EPL referees reffed 20 or more Ligue 1 games

That’s the most damming stat for me, hence it being put in bold. One of Europes best referees, gets a break that it seems the Prem doesn’t. I mean, in the 19/20 season we had 3 referees do 32 games. That’s just insane. You’ve raised a great point here methinks
 
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There's the actual list of the PL last season vs Ligue 1.
 
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