A&H

Junior/Youth Abusive manager

It's been passed around on here before, but with youth football, getting an adult coach to leave the vicinity of the playing area where the youngsters he's responsible for are playing football, calls into question the "legality" of it and could well be his trump card when refusing to leave the pitch side, certainly if he's on his own (which does happen)(?)
I'm in two camps on this one.

1. The referee could explain that in view of the fact that it's youth football, the coach can remain "pitchside" but one more outburst and the match will be abandoned (the ref will of course have to stick to this promise if and when it happens, to avoid complete loss of credibility). A misconduct report is submitted anyway.

2. The referee decides that because of the "youth duty of care" situation that he is unable to properly enforce the LOTG regarding the dealing with the coach and that in light of the the "abuse" he has recieved up to this point he feels he no longer has match control and abandons. A misconduct report is submitted anyway.

Personally, I'd lean towards option 1 but I think that either course of action is suitable for a teenage referee in the circumstances described. :)

Wonder what his "club marks" were like from Blue team eh? :rolleyes: The incompetent judging the competent!!

(Sorry, couldn't help slipping that one in :p ).
 
The Referee Store
Peter Grove said:
He's said that the manager walked away but we don't know exactly what that means. Did he walk away from the conversation but remain on the touchline/in the vicinity of the pitch or did he walk away, leave the vicinity of the pitch and go to the car park? I agree with DB714 here - if the former, abandon due to the manager's continued refusal to leave but if the latter, abandonment does not seem entirely necessary.
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I think my brother felt the 'cheat' comment was sufficient to put his control of the match in disrepute, as many spectators/players heard, whether or not the manager would have followed referee's orders. He had had to deal with sustained questioning up to that point. I know I now feel more confident in dealing with such situations, but as a younger referee this would probably have sent me over the edge. I've told him that we can all recover from these traumas, and that enjoyment does return. Brother has already had issues with being undermined by managers (one last year forced a replacement on the morning of the match, and was not held to account by club/county/league), so asking somebody to take over was not his first instinct
 
Charlie Jones said:
I think what we all need to remember is ... this is an U12 game ... with an U18 referee. when I were a lad and started refereeing and the pups age of 14, my dad used to come with me - a 6ft 7, 28stone bulking man - so nobody really went 'that step too far' unfortunately though not everyone is as lucky as I was ... if he felt threatened then abandon, nobody should ever be made to feel threatened in ANY situation, especially not on a football field, and even more especially at this age group!

just out of curiosity here, and I really don't mean to be rude but ... you're his older brother? and was there? did you not feel the need to step in maybe? I know ill get caned for this as you shouldn't get involved ... but even now when I go to watch my mates play football and someone starts abusing the ref I always throw in the 'oi mate, pack it in' or 'fella, ive got a copy of the LOTG in my boot ... fancy a read at half time?' I couldn't have helped my self by telling him to put up or shut up

just my thoughts though
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Thanks to you and others for all your contributions. They have helped my brother see the incident in a new light and reaffirmed his self-belief. In this case, I don't think abandonment was the coward's option, if indeed it ever is. I should have clarified at the start, but I wasn't actually in attendance (we often referee simultaneously at different grounds, although only a few miles apart). The reason for the detail here is that it overlaps with his misconduct report. I will admit confrontation is not always my forte (still a referee, eh?!), but I am sure I would have alerted home manager much sooner if I had been there, and at least tried to have a word with the guilty parties. Like you, my dad used to accompany me to matches and was a reassuring presence if matters ever went sour or spiralled out of control; yet some of these football types are so sensitive and bristling with suppressed anger, I have seen grown men spit back aggressively at the most diplomatic words, so you have to choose your moment!
 
CapnBloodbeard said:
why did he feel that he needed to abandon? Was he too upset at the abuse? Being called a cheat is not grounds for abandonment. If he felt that he was unable to continue the match then fair enough - so what can we do to help him develop techniques to be able to keep functioning when there is abuse?

and I'm with Herts on the PK - DB714 is giving some ordinary advice here. Even without saying 'boo', the encroachment is reason for a retake. DB's approach is why it's so very, very difficult to actually order a retake on a PK no matter how blatant the offence.
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Yes, difficult circumstances given atmosphere at the time, but by all accounts the retake was indisputable. I never know whether to act preventatively in these cases--like calling out goalkeepers for straying off line or players for creeping--or just to let the kick be taken and see how it unfolds.
 
You don't want to risk speaking to the players and distracting them while the kick is about to be taken. If the keeper steps off his line immediately and the runup hasn't begun then by all means, blow your whistle again to stop the kick, be firm with the keeper, then resume. Preventative refereeing - much better than retaking a PK.
 
@SLI39 that is fair enough, do apologise!

I always carry the belief that if YOU feel an abandonment than nobody can say otherwise!
 
Kes said:
It's been passed around on here before, but with youth football, getting an adult coach to leave the vicinity of the playing area where the youngsters he's responsible for are playing football, calls into question the "legality" of it and could well be his trump card when refusing to leave the pitch side, certainly if he's on his own (which does happen)(?)
I'm in two camps on this one.

1. The referee could explain that in view of the fact that it's youth football, the coach can remain "pitchside" but one more outburst and the match will be abandoned (the ref will of course have to stick to this promise if and when it happens, to avoid complete loss of credibility). A misconduct report is submitted anyway.

2. The referee decides that because of the "youth duty of care" situation that he is unable to properly enforce the LOTG regarding the dealing with the coach and that in light of the the "abuse" he has recieved up to this point he feels he no longer has match control and abandons. A misconduct report is submitted anyway.

Personally, I'd lean towards option 1 but I think that either course of action is suitable for a teenage referee in the circumstances described. :)

Wonder what his "club marks" were like from Blue team eh? :rolleyes: The incompetent judging the competent!!

(Sorry, couldn't help slipping that one in :p ).
Click to expand...

Thanks; it's always an indictment of people's basic humanity when parents/coaches ignore such abuse (there were some parents and maybe one other coach, he thinks, but it didn't really occur to my brother to wonder whether he could continue without the away manager, as he was pretty upset). Sometimes there are welfare officers at our matches, but not on this occasion. As for club marks, we referee for a club that does not relay these directly, but there is strong, bespoke support for young referees. Usually visiting clubs are well-behaved, but the exceptions are the ones you remember, of course.
 
SLI39 said:
Yes, difficult circumstances given atmosphere at the time, but by all accounts the retake was indisputable. I never know whether to act preventatively in these cases--like calling out goalkeepers for straying off line or players for creeping--or just to let the kick be taken and see how it unfolds.
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A little trick you might want to pass on (which I always use now) is the quick warning to all players as they gather outside the area before any penalty is taken:
As I walk backwards towards my own position for the kick and before blowing the whistle I'm always careful to explain loudly -

"Just be aware gents, ANY encroachment and I WILL look to retake!!"

That normally keeps both sets of players alert to the possibility of it and is the ref's trump card if and when it happens. ;)
 
Kes said:
It's been passed around on here before, but with youth football, getting an adult coach to leave the vicinity of the playing area where the youngsters he's responsible for are playing football, calls into question the "legality" of it and could well be his trump card when refusing to leave the pitch side, certainly if he's on his own (which does happen)(?)
I'm in two camps on this one.

1. The referee could explain that in view of the fact that it's youth football, the coach can remain "pitchside" but one more outburst and the match will be abandoned (the ref will of course have to stick to this promise if and when it happens, to avoid complete loss of credibility). A misconduct report is submitted anyway.

2. The referee decides that because of the "youth duty of care" situation that he is unable to properly enforce the LOTG regarding the dealing with the coach and that in light of the the "abuse" he has recieved up to this point he feels he no longer has match control and abandons. A misconduct report is submitted anyway.

Personally, I'd lean towards option 1 but I think that either course of action is suitable for a teenage referee in the circumstances described. :)

Wonder what his "club marks" were like from Blue team eh? :rolleyes: The incompetent judging the competent!!

(Sorry, couldn't help slipping that one in :p ).
Click to expand...
Gather home and away coaches together, then to the offending coach "Please take note of this warning. I will not tolerate any more outbursts, and my only option will be to dismiss you. If you are the only responsible adult for your team, I will have no choice but to also abandon the game." Then carry through with the threat, even if that is immediate if the coach reacts to the public warning.

You will not be responsible for ruining a match for 22+ players, the coach that re-offends will be.

This is actually one of my major gripes around grassroots football - the abuse that young referees have to endure. I read here a while ago that the minimum age requirement is possibly going to be increased. That's treating the symptom and not the cause though. The FA should instruct the leagues that should instruct the clubs that should instruct the teams that this behaviour is simply not acceptable. All referees (even the "juniors") should be supported in acting upon it. If a junior ref doesn't [yet] have the confidence in game, they should be encouraged to report it to their ref-sec after the game, and the offending teams start getting "take no bull****" referees and/or league monitoring at matches. Let's start fining and suspending coaches that behave like this, and we might have a chance at getting a generation of players through that play with respect.
 
xPositor said:
Gather home and away coaches together, then to the offending coach "Please take note of this warning. I will not tolerate any more outbursts, and my only option will be to dismiss you. If you are the only responsible adult for your team, I will have no choice but to also abandon the game." Then carry through with the threat, even if that is immediate if the coach reacts to the public warning.

You will not be responsible for ruining a match for 22+ players, the coach that re-offends will be.

This is actually one of my major gripes around grassroots football - the abuse that young referees have to endure. I read here a while ago that the minimum age requirement is possibly going to be increased. That's treating the symptom and not the cause though. The FA should instruct the leagues that should instruct the clubs that should instruct the teams that this behaviour is simply not acceptable. All referees (even the "juniors") should be supported in acting upon it. If a junior ref doesn't [yet] have the confidence in game, they should be encouraged to report it to their ref-sec after the game, and the offending teams start getting "take no bull****" referees and/or league monitoring at matches. Let's start fining and suspending coaches that behave like this, and we might have a chance at getting a generation of players through that play with respect.
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Totally agree, maybe even take it a step further and let it be known/encourage U18 referees to abandon after 1 warning?

Would that work - we amend various laws for U18 players so why not U18 referees?
 
SLI39 said:
I think my brother felt the 'cheat' comment was sufficient to put his control of the match in disrepute, as many spectators/players heard, whether or not the manager would have followed referee's orders. He had had to deal with sustained questioning up to that point. I know I now feel more confident in dealing with such situations, but as a younger referee this would probably have sent me over the edge. I've told him that we can all recover from these traumas, and that enjoyment does return. Brother has already had issues with being undermined by managers (one last year forced a replacement on the morning of the match, and was not held to account by club/county/league), so asking somebody to take over was not his first instinct
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Is it fair to say look at it this way, you would send off a player for calling you a cheat, why should a coach be any different? Especially as a youth Ref, I know that coaches think that they are above you as they are older, it can be very hard to manage. Sometimes you have to be stricter with them than you would if you were an adult. You should certainly not look to get rid of them but keep them under control and if you have to, send them away. Also it makes you as the referee look more confident and as if you know what you are doing and are in control.
 
HertsFinest said:
This makes me very uncomfortable.

Last weeks ref is fit and well I see :rolleyes:
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Care to expand upon your comment? Last week's ref is that guy that doesn't send off for DOGSO because it's near the end of the game, or gives an IDFK for shouting but no caution... it's certainly not, in my experience, one that goes looking for trouble
 
DB714 said:
Care to expand upon your comment? Last week's ref is that guy that doesn't send off for DOGSO because it's near the end of the game, or gives an IDFK for shouting but no caution... it's certainly not, in my experience, one that goes looking for trouble
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Blatantly disregarding law because nobody else is bothered is last weeks ref mate.

If the attacker is put off and misses you have to retake the penalty. Regardless who else heard or appeals.

Not doing so is lazy and bottler refereeing
 
HertsFinest said:
Blatantly disregarding law because nobody else is bothered is last weeks ref mate.

If the attacker is put off and misses you have to retake the penalty. Regardless who else heard or appeals.

Not doing so is lazy and bottler refereeing
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Yes, so how has what I put contradictory to your post? I said if the players get on with it then play on.... I can assure you that if the player has been put off he will most certainly not be getting on with it and that will fall into the second part of what I said.

When a defensive free kick doesn't leave the penalty area do I play on because none of the players shout for it? Even when they say "it's not a goal kick ref"? No I don't - I order the retake because that is what you must do.
 
DB714 said:
Yes, so how has what I put contradictory to your post? I said if the players get on with it then play on.... I can assure you that if the player has been put off he will most certainly not be getting on with it and that will fall into the second part of what I said.
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You also said you would not order a retake because of encroachment unless the encroaching player was at least level with the ball
 
zarathustra said:
You also said you would not order a retake because of encroachment unless the encroaching player was at least level with the ball
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I did. And if you didn't you would have every single penalty in every game of football retaken. My answer in a LOTG exam would be correct but do you think it is feasible to have every penalty retaken?

If a penalty goes wide and you order a retake for defensive encroachment, where it is not obviously disruptive to the game, then you are going to have some serious match control issues.
 
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