Youth football DOGSO

[Joshref]

We had a few referees do pre match talks with us at U11s-U14s and the main thing I can remember that they always said was “a handball on the goal line to stop a goal is a red card.” Makes it much easier to red card someone if you’ve warned them about the consequences.

People are expecting referees to referee differently at younger age groups and if you pull out a red card in an U12 game there are going to be questions raised, especially if it’s for DOGSO. If you warn the teams beforehand, then one, it’s less likely to happen because most kids are terrified of getting a red, and two, there can’t be complaints if it does happen.

Is it right that you have to warn teams about a red card for DOGSO? We can debate the merits of that, but the point remains. Your job becomes a lot easier if you warn teams beforehand.

 

[Anubis]

We had a few referees do pre match talks with us at U11s-U14s and the main thing I can remember that they always said was “a handball on the goal line to stop a goal is a red card.” Makes it much easier to red card someone if you’ve warned them about the consequences.

People are expecting referees to referee differently at younger age groups and if you pull out a red card in an U12 game there are going to be questions raised, especially if it’s for DOGSO. If you warn the teams beforehand, then one, it’s less likely to happen because most kids are terrified of getting a red, and two, there can’t be complaints if it does happen.

Is it right that you have to warn teams about a red card for DOGSO? We can debate the merits of that, but the point remains. Your job becomes a lot easier if you warn teams beforehand.

no doubt it can be viewed as proactive
that aside, its up to the players/coaches to understand the laws of the sport in which they are partaking

i cant stroll onto the gridiron field and just chuck the ball about and hope for the best. Its essential to understand the laws.

others have phrased it better than me. If folk just carried out their role within the laws, and not by their own ( even if morally might be correct) made up rules, everybodys , the coaches, fans, players, and ultimately given this is a referee forum, the referees game, will run smoother.

 

[Ben448844]

I dont do kids football but at what age are their league tables (I know this got pushed back fairly recently). If there's no league table at under 11s for example and therefore every game is a friendly and not competitive in the true sense of the word then do we really need to card for technical offences? Violent conduct and SFP are what they are at any age, but DOGSO at an age where the kids are solely playing for enjoyment? Would we be better to educate the player after it's happened on what the consequences are but not award a red and get a kid a suspension for the next match?

I dont need an explanation on the counter arguments as they are extremely obvious, but when kids are playing solely for fun then this should be recognised in the way we officiate.

 

[Russell Jones]

I dont do kids football but at what age are their league tables (I know this got pushed back fairly recently). If there's no league table at under 11s for example and therefore every game is a friendly and not competitive in the true sense of the word then do we really need to card for technical offences? Violent conduct and SFP are what they are at any age, but DOGSO at an age where the kids are solely playing for enjoyment? Would we be better to educate the player after it's happened on what the consequences are but not award a red and get a kid a suspension for the next match?

I dont need an explanation on the counter arguments as they are extremely obvious, but when kids are playing solely for fun then this should be recognised in the way we officiate.

Good question Ben. In all the youth leagues in my area, tables are published from Under 12 upwards. On reflection, this is, in fact, in line with what is taught on the Beginners referee course, as this age is also when offsides come into play. So, (as a correction to my earlier post) up to Under 11 is considered non competitive where referees have more flexibility. Under 12 and higher the normal LOTG should apply

 

[Kent Ref]

Factual. Not sarcastic.

The consequences of issuing a red are of no concern to a match official

your senario is fine without an appointed registered match official.
when one of them is in place, they can be flexible to suit
however
they cannot blatently cause an affront to the lotg.

maybe before this weekends game, hand the referee a note of the offences that you do wish sanctioned and any other modifications, maybe...award a goal even if it dont go in, just so Jordan gets his hatrick, or, disallow any goal that rolls thro the gk legs to save him the indignity of costing his team the game

dont want the referee to apply the lotg? want the referee to pick and choose which laws to apply?
then its a kids party host you require, not a registered official.

if anything, you are sounding like you would not respect the referees decision, which, is a horrible example to be setting 12yos in itself..no wonder there are respect campaigns and referee assaults if a coach wont accept ( nobody said agree, accept), the referees decision,

On another thread you told me not to give a penalty for a push in the back as nobody appealed. But here you are telling this person to apply the LOTG. Confused?

 

[Big Cat]

Good question Ben. In all the youth leagues in my area, tables are published from Under 12 upwards. On reflection, this is, in fact, in line with what is taught on the Beginners referee course, as this age is also when offsides come into play. So, (as a correction to my earlier post) up to Under 11 is considered non competitive where referees have more flexibility. Under 12 and higher the normal LOTG should apply

Whist I agree that U12's is a good age to start drawing lines based on League Table production, offside in Herts actually starts at U11s
Anyway, you couldn't really suggest this on a training course, but my approach in Youth Football has always been to use a sliding scale based on ability and age, with the former arguably more important than then latter. It's an art, not a science... bit like Refereeing per se, as it happens (don't tell VAR)

 

[Anubis]

On another thread you told me not to give a penalty for a push in the back as nobody appealed. But here you are telling this person to apply the LOTG. Confused?

Giving a pk is making a judgement call. Its not a sanction
Having given this clear pk for handball on the line ( the decision) the mandatory sanction is the red card.

ones a detection of a foul.
ones a sanction.

very different

 

[gman1978]

They're 11yr old children trying to enjoy the game!! i do lots of youth games and have never shown a card at that age group. Talk to them and educate, you're normally find that they are really apologetic and crestfallen that they've done something wrong. Why compound that and send an 11 yr old for an early bath??

Don't spout the LOTG at me, i prefer to use common sense and i've never had a mgr of the opposition complain that i should have sent a child off. Maybe i've been lucky, or maybe the mgrs also appreciate common sense and education.

 

[Kes]

They're 11yr old children trying to enjoy the game!! i do lots of youth games and have never shown a card at that age group. Talk to them and educate, you're normally find that they are really apologetic and crestfallen that they've done something wrong. Why compound that and send an 11 yr old for an early bath??

Don't spout the LOTG at me, i prefer to use common sense and i've never had a mgr of the opposition complain that i should have sent a child off. Maybe i've been lucky, or maybe the mgrs also appreciate common sense and education.

Why bother at all then?

Just have a coach/parent do it.

 

[Big Cat]

They're 11yr old children trying to enjoy the game!! i do lots of youth games and have never shown a card at that age group. Talk to them and educate, you're normally find that they are really apologetic and crestfallen that they've done something wrong. Why compound that and send an 11 yr old for an early bath??

Don't spout the LOTG at me, i prefer to use common sense and i've never had a mgr of the opposition complain that i should have sent a child off. Maybe i've been lucky, or maybe the mgrs also appreciate common sense and education.

Like I say, 'an art, not a science'. Difficult to verbalize how to Ref the different age groups and ability levels on a forum. It always makes me laugh that many pages of the book have effectively been torn out by Refs, yet the same Refs are steadfastly loyal to ridiculous detail on other pages, depending upon what the Observer is arbitrarily looking for

 

[Kes]

It's already been stated on here that referees can show leniency and "flexibility" where the LOTG and kids are concerned but to allow serious misdemeanours to go "unpunished" as some seem to be suggesting is wrong for me.

If as a referee, you want to do things "your way" then fine, don't put the card through/accidentally "lose" the piece of paper with the kid's details on it so that the ban/fine don't materialise, but at least be seen do the right thing on the field on the day ...

 

[Big Cat]

It's already been stated on here that referees can show leniency and "flexibility" where the LOTG and kids are concerned but to allow serious misdemeanours to go "unpunished" as some seem to be suggesting is wrong for me.

If as a referee, you want to do things "your way" then fine, don't put the card through/accidentally "lose" the piece of paper with the kid's details on it so that the ban/fine don't materialise, but at least be seen do the right thing on the field on the day ...

We're probably in agreement. Difficult to generalise 1000+ YHTBT incidents

 

[Anubis]

They're 11yr old children trying to enjoy the game!! i do lots of youth games and have never shown a card at that age group. Talk to them and educate, you're normally find that they are really apologetic and crestfallen that they've done something wrong. Why compound that and send an 11 yr old for an early bath??

Don't spout the LOTG at me, i prefer to use common sense and i've never had a mgr of the opposition complain that i should have sent a child off. Maybe i've been lucky, or maybe the mgrs also appreciate common sense and education.

A qualified registered referee taking a match fee for ignoring the laws of the game which they officiate.

as Kes says, pointless. i turn up next week and get hounded out the facility for adhering to the laws because the ref last week made up their own laws!


thanka a lot. There is a reason there is a lotg manual, Its to prevent the requirement for us to make things up as we go along, A referee stating they will not follow the lotg,
Going to run a red light at lunchtime because despite knowing you should wait, screw the highway code, common sense says there is nothing coming and maybe i been lucky and made it thro the junction unscathed before

best one yet, a referee in type admitting they do their own thing over the correct thing, The badge you wear whilst you pick uo your fee requires you to adhere to the book.

law 5, the referee enforces the lotg, not, the referee will decide because Kai is 11 he wont be sanctioned.

 

[RefJef]

I do wonder whether a lot of those who are advocating strict adherence to the laws at this level actually referee youth football? (And if Im honest, I wouldn’t actually call U11 youth, I’d call it kids football.)

Its very easy to write on a forum “you must do this, you must do that”, its much harder to actually do that on a field of play.

If we are going to be really pedantic, we could always say safeguarding must trump the laws of the game (and it must) and we could probably find a safeguarding argument to justify no red card.

To those of you who referee such young age groups, and do so with compassion and common sense, I salute you.

 

[Anubis]

I do wonder whether a lot of those who are advocating strict adherence to the laws at this level actually referee youth football? (And if Im honest, I wouldn’t actually call U11 youth, I’d call it kids football.)

Its very easy to write on a forum “you must do this, you must do that”, its much harder to actually do that on a field of play.

If we are going to be really pedantic, we could always say safeguarding must trump the laws of the game (and it must) and we could probably find a safeguarding argument to justify no red card.

To those of you who referee such young age groups, and do so with compassion and common sense, I salute you.

here, out new young refs start with 9 v 9 u11
often watched by a mentor, ref coach

whats the mentor to put on their assessment sheet when the new ref fails to uphold the lotg over sentiment?

 

[Kes]

If we are going to be really pedantic, we could always say safeguarding must trump the laws of the game (and it must) and we could probably find a safeguarding argument to justify no red card.

Go on then.

 

[RefJef]

Go on then.

Can we be sure that the youngster will have a safe place to go when they leave the pitch? Can we be sure that the youngster will not suffer abuse (that could be verbal or emotional) as/when they leave the pitch?

As the referee we have a duty of care to the youngsters on our pitch, and this has to trump the lotg. To just send someone off because the law says so is not enough, we are duty bound to consider the welfare of the youngster.

we may decide that it is right, and safe to send the youngster off, we may decide that it’s not safe to send the youngster off. My point is that we can’t, when dealing with children, say ”we must do this, because the laws say so.”

 

[Kes]

Can we be sure that the youngster will have a safe place to go when they leave the pitch? Can we be sure that the youngster will not suffer abuse (that could be verbal or emotional) as/when they leave the pitch?

As the referee we have a duty of care to the youngsters on our pitch, and this has to trump the lotg. To just send someone off because the law says so is not enough, we are duty bound to consider the welfare of the youngster.

I'd agree with on the pitch. But off the pitch??!! Where would you draw the line Jeff? When you blow the whistle for full time, do you concern yourself with making sure all 22 can get home safely? Of course you don't. That's not your job, it's the coaches.
If what you say had any real basis in logic or safeguarding protocol then it would already be written down in the safeguarding training and FA youth guidance and instruction to referees that any player under the age of 18 can not be sent off.
Talk about "woolly" ...

 

[Matthew]

They're 11yr old children trying to enjoy the game!! i do lots of youth games and have never shown a card at that age group. Talk to them and educate, you're normally find that they are really apologetic and crestfallen that they've done something wrong. Why compound that and send an 11 yr old for an early bath??

Don't spout the LOTG at me, i prefer to use common sense and i've never had a mgr of the opposition complain that i should have sent a child off. Maybe i've been lucky, or maybe the mgrs also appreciate common sense and education.

"Don't spout the LOTG at me"

I'm all for leniency at the younger age groups and have probably issued <10 cards in 10+ years to players under 12, but to suggest that the LOTG don't apply is, quite frankly, ridiculous. Of course education has its place (foul throws, moving ball at GKs etc) and the definitions of careless, reckless and excessive force are very different at the younger age groups, with the vast majority of challenges being clumsy/careless rather than anything more sinister, but a red card offence is a red card offence, regardless of the age of the player.

Two real world U11 scenarios for you (I issued red cards for both):
- Off the ball incident where an attacker kicked the defender in the crotch off the ball in an act of violent conduct
- "F**k off you cheat" after awarding a penalty

Would you be applying common sense to those scenarios, or would you apply the LOTG as you are obligated to do? Certain offences are non-negotiable and I would ask serious questions of any referee who didn't issue a red card in those scenarios.

 

[Big Cat]

I've dismissed an U12 player at a tournament
But to all you spouting LOTG and our duty to apply sanctions, come back when you're cautioning players for 'failing to respect the required distance'. The forum may go silent for a while