Yellow Turns to Red

[GraemeS]

You play advantage on a reckless challenge. You then forget to show him a yellow card or let him know at the next stoppage. 10 minutes later you remember. Do you then show him a yellow or just tell him? Or neither. Is he now on a caution?

What if you only remember after he commits another cautionable offence? Did the first caution happen?

I know it's not entirely the same as the OP, but it illustrates 'counting' a caution that was not communicated is a slippery slope. There may well be cases that you should count/record them, but OP or my examples are not one of them.

Both interesting questions, but not actually relevant to this.

This is a player who has committed dissent, has been told he's committed dissent and has then escalated. Best course of action would have been to show the yellow then the red (possibly with additional hand gestures to clarify), but you don't get to ignore stuff that happened before a red card just because your top priority in the moment is getting a player who is acting aggressively towards you away.

Again, the core point is that showing a yellow card is only a tool to help clearly communicate a caution - it is not a requirement for a caution to have occurred. The caution occurs when and to who the referee believes it has occurred, anything else (telling the player, writing it down, showing a card) is ancillary to that initial moment. And I'd be happy to discuss how that affects your theoretical questions in a different thread, but it's only going to cloud the issue if we go deep into irrelevant hypotheticals here.

 

[Anubis]

Yellow and red for me

Player squares up to someone, gives them a push, ( AAA). something which is a yellow, you get to the scene but as you make your way there, he committs a violent conduct offence, say, punches someone, I would be yellow, then, red. To not do so means he escapes scot free with his original yellow.

I would be pretty vocal though ' yc aggressive, straight red violent conduct". or something.

 

[ReallyRef?]

You're correct on everything you've just mentioned. My point was regarding the OP, since the card wasn't shown, as a one off, you can just not mention it.
But yes, in an ideal situation, show the yellow first and the red after. In your own time, no pressure.

I've had a similar situation where given dissent during the end of second half; player cautioned and on his way to Sin Bin, but decided to clap sarcastically. Told him he is being booked for that too, so knowing he'll be sent off, decided to address some abusive language. Straight red, sanctioning the more serios offence. Could have gone with a second yellow for being clapped, S7 and put OFFINABUS additionally.
He didn't moan, his coaches didn't either and the player at the end "offered" jokingly £20, to put the redcard as a second yellow.
I've explained everything in my report, nothing came back.

 

[Max2]

Just report what happened, up to County (etc) to work out what to do with the information.

 

[ARF]

I've had a similar situation where given dissent during the end of second half; player cautioned and on his way to Sin Bin, but decided to clap sarcastically. Told him he is being booked for that too, so knowing he'll be sent off, decided to address some abusive language. Straight red, sanctioning the more serios offence. Could have gone with a second yellow for being clapped, S7 and put OFFINABUS additionally.

Actually a S7 would have been incorrect - it would be reported as a C2 (Sin Bin) for the first show of dissent, and a 'normal' C2 for the sarcastic applause, no red card shown but the player wouldn't have been able to return or be subbed. And then the S6 obviously.

"Sanctioning the more serious offence" doesn't apply here - that only covers offences which happen simultaneously, for example a tackle which is DOGSO, but is also SFP.

 

[ReallyRef?]

I believe you're wrong here. Any other cautionable offence committed during the Sin Bin is a second yellow card, so a red. Not to be confused with the fact that he spent his Sin Bin time and came back and comitted the second offence. As I have said no one questioned the situation and the report said the exact thing as my previous comment. County FA didn't get back to me saying I've not applied correctly the Laws of the Game.

 

[ARF]

Any other cautionable offence committed during the Sin Bin is a second yellow card, so a red.

That's not right. A sending off for S7 would only be for two non sin bin offences.

Not to be confused with the fact that he spent his Sin Bin time and came back and comitted the second offence. As I have said no one questioned the situation and the report said the exact thing as my previous comment. County FA didn't get back to me saying I've not applied correctly the Laws of the Game.

Your previous post said the exact opposite, however that doesn't really change the end result here. If a player is sin binned, serves their time, comes back on and then shows dissent for a second time, that would be a second C2 (Sin Bin), and still no S7.

 

[RustyRef]

If you have started the cautioning process, i.e. the player knows he is getting cautioned, then absolutely put both the yellow and the red through. But not if the only thing that knew a caution was coming was your head, as in that case the club are going to get it, go "hang on a minute, he wasn't cautioned", and be straight on the phone to the CFA.

 

[JamesL]

I believe you're wrong here. Any other cautionable offence committed during the Sin Bin is a second yellow card, so a red. Not to be confused with the fact that he spent his Sin Bin time and came back and comitted the second offence. As I have said no one questioned the situation and the report said the exact thing as my previous comment. County FA didn't get back to me saying I've not applied correctly the Laws of the Game.

Nope, he is right.
A player who commits an offence whilst in the sin bin "takes no further part and cannot be substituted."
Takes no further part is not the same as "and is sent off."

If a player returns and commits another dissent offence, you don't show a red card, it's another yellow, and he "takes no further part and cannot be substituted."

Where the sanction is takes no further part, there is no requirement to show a red card because the player is not sent off.

The reason you r County haven't queried it is because you reported as a red card. You will have reported 2 x c2 (not 1 x c2 sinbin and 1 x c2) so to the discipline officer this would appear like 2 c2s for a substitute or substituted player.

 

[ReallyRef?]

As I said, player was cautioned for dissent and sent to Sin Bin, but before leaving clapped me. Told him he would get another caution for that, so he gave me a bit of abuse, so straight red for that. But the whole incident was explained in detail in my match report.

 

[JamesL]

As I said, player was cautioned for dissent and sent to Sin Bin, but before leaving clapped me. Told him he would get another caution for that, so he gave me a bit of abuse, so straight red for that. But the whole incident was explained in detail in my match report.

So he was sent off for offinabus, not receiving two cautions?

 

[ReallyRef?]

Exactly...

 

[ChasObserverRefDeveloper]

As I said, player was cautioned for dissent and sent to Sin Bin, but before leaving clapped me. Told him he would get another caution for that, so he gave me a bit of abuse, so straight red for that. But the whole incident was explained in detail in my match report.

Which "match report" included the detailed story? If you are in England, you would report yellows/reds/misconduct via the system, but not any other script unless reporting misconduct(?)
Did your "match report" form part of your disciplinary report, or was it a separate report?

 

[ReallyRef?]

Obviously, I am using the wrong wording as English is not my first language. When I put the dismissal through, the is the add details rubric under the Offence code one. There is where I explained the incident.

 

[RustyRef]

Obviously, I am using the wrong wording as English is not my first language. When I put the dismissal through, the is the add details rubric under the Offence code one. There is where I explained the incident.

No one reads that. If you need to report additional details you need to add an extraordinary incident report.

 

[Redster]

It fascinates me that there are no reports for send offs or that, if additional details are sent through, no one reads them.

How does the FA assess the seriousness of the sending off offence? There's a big difference, for instance, between SFP with no injury and SFP which causes a compound fracture.

Not relevant to this discussion, maybe, but it blows me away

 

[JamesL]

It fascinates me that there are no reports for send offs or that, if additional details are sent through, no one reads them.

How does the FA assess the seriousness of the sending off offence? There's a big difference, for instance, between SFP with no injury and SFP which causes a compound fracture.

Not relevant to this discussion, maybe, but it blows me away

The referee can submit a report for more serious offences. But standard misconduct is just the code that's needed

 

[RustyRef]

It fascinates me that there are no reports for send offs or that, if additional details are sent through, no one reads them.

How does the FA assess the seriousness of the sending off offence? There's a big difference, for instance, between SFP with no injury and SFP which causes a compound fracture.

Not relevant to this discussion, maybe, but it blows me away

Serious foul play is serious foul play, the sanction doesn't increase because an injury is caused. The sanction might be increased at pro levels where there is video evidence, but at grass roots it is just a 3 game ban no matter the nature of the challenge.

 

[ARF]

Serious foul play is serious foul play, the sanction doesn't increase because an injury is caused. The sanction might be increased at pro levels where there is video evidence, but at grass roots it is just a 3 game ban no matter the nature of the challenge.

Not strictly true, there is a procedure for CFAs to make a claim that the standard punishment would be clearly insufficient for S1, S2 or S3 offences. However in practice I agree that it's unlikely that S1s would be increased.

 

[Redster]

I repeat. Crazy.

 

[RustyRef]

Not strictly true, there is a procedure for CFAs to make a claim that the standard punishment would be clearly insufficient for S1, S2 or S3 offences. However in practice I agree that it's unlikely that S1s would be increased.

Yeah, I have certainly seen VCs upgraded, never seen it for SFP though. Even back in the days when referees had to describe the offence, I'm struggling to think of any wording that would trigger an increase. Even at professional level with video evidence I'll struggling to recall many challenges that have had the sanction upgraded. Ben Thatcher on Pedro Mendes but that was over 15 years ago, and I seem to remember Roy Keane got an increased ban for his horror challenge on Haaland.

 

[ARF]

Yeah, I have certainly seen VCs upgraded, never seen it for SFP though. Even back in the days when referees had to describe the offence, I'm struggling to think of any wording that would trigger an increase. Even at professional level with video evidence I'll struggling to recall many challenges that have had the sanction upgraded. Ben Thatcher on Pedro Mendes but that was over 15 years ago, and I seem to remember Roy Keane got an increased ban for his horror challenge on Haaland.

Keane only got three matches at the time IIRC, it was only after his autobiography was published that he got a further suspension.

 

[RustyRef]

Keane only got three matches at the time IIRC, it was only after his autobiography was published that he got a further suspension.

Yes, that rings a bell. Which further adds weight to my point that it is very rare for an additional suspension to be added for SFP, as that was probably one of the most notorious ones of all time.

 

[OnlyUseMeWhistle]

Cup semi-final today... Gone to a penalty shootout!

Team A need to score to win, player takes kick before my whistle and scores. Team celebrate, but I ask for a retake. Simple stuff.

He misses the retake, and one of their players starts aiming dissent from the halfway line. I walk to him to give him a yellow and as I'm explaining the booking, he aims abusive language at me.

I've not taken my yellow card out yet, so I then take the red one out and send him off.

When submitting the match report, would you put the yellow for dissent and then a straight red? Or would you just submit the straight red. As mentioned earlier, I did not show my yellow yet at that point as I was writing his name and letting him know what it was for.

I've had this and find the replies really interesting because I have had an identical incident.

Sent him off and only put the red through because I hadn't said why I wanted to speak to him yet.