A&H

Wolves V Swansea

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There is no arguement. Its violent conduct. The right answer was reached at the time by the referee at the time of the incident
 
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GraemeS said:
Unfortunately, I'm not happy to just accept "you ref to your standards and I'll ref to mine", because the inevitable consequence of that is that one of us is forced into the role of "last week's ref", reffing to his own rules and making life harder for his colleagues who do the job correctly.
That may well be me in this situation, but the forum exists to try and build consensus. Your interpretation vs mine is fine, but there's still a right and a wrong answer somewhere in here, and I think (especially considering the discussion is still fairly civil!) we should strive towards that?

So, you keep using the specific phrase "kicking out", which is both not in the LOTG as far as I can recall, and also, I think fairly misleading given that this is in my opinion a simple trip. (I appreciate that's a matter of interpretation, but can we go with it for the sake of the discussion?) A kick of an opponent in this context can meet the criteria for SFP fairly easily, but I don't think that's what you're arguing here? The debate essentially comes down to us deciding at what point C/R/EF stop's applying and any contact between opponents is simply unnecessary violent conduct? Given that this is something that occurred purely for tactical reasons, I'm looking at it with my C/R/EF head and saying there's no way it meets the criteria for the latter.
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You don't really have a choice but to accept it though. You think it is a caution, which is fine, I personally think it is a nailed on red card, as did a PGMOL, FIFA Elite, referee. That isn't to say he is right either, but there will always be disagreements in refereeing and football.

I've said this on other topics, but if this had happened in Spain or most other European countries no one would have raised the slightest question, indeed the questions would be coming if a red card hadn't been produced. There seems to be this lingering thing in England that a player can intentionally kick an opponent, with no intention of playing the ball, and get away with it. Perhaps a non-FIFA referee might have gone yellow, but the FIFA referees know that the expectation of such a challenge anywhere in Europe (except perhaps the last bastion of fouling in the UK) would be a red card.
 
I am normally on your side of this @GraemeS for tactical fouls where the ball is out of playing distance. However, I do see how this one is escalated. My view is that he has struck his opponent here which is, all be it borderline, an act of brutality. I think on balance a red card is the correct outcome here. I see your argument on this one as the force does not appear all that excessive however this seems more than a tactical foul and sits more in the VC conduct as he hasnt just dangled the leg to trip him he's full on kicked him intentionally.
 
Had Fer kicked him , same speed, same force, into waist, I cant fathom why anybody would not regard that as VC. The fact he has chosen his destination for the kick to be into the opponents legs, does not negate the actual act itself.
A kick out is a kick out regardless if where it lands on the opponent
 
JamesL said:
tactical fouls where the ball is out of playing distance.
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That's an interesting point. Not every physical offence with the ball out of playing distance can be VC, right?
So, where is the line?
And does anyone have any guidance from the higher ups from the last few years on this?
 
According to LOTG

Brutality
An act which is savage, ruthless or deliberately violent
 
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Kicking out at someone, on a football pitch, whilst making no attempt to challenge for the ball. Is, for me, brutual, ruthless and deliberatley violent

Same as someone swinging a punch at someone would be

Neither are acceptable in a game of football
 
Ciley Myrus said:
Kicking out at someone, on a football pitch, whilst making no attempt to challenge for the ball. Is, for me, brutual, ruthless and deliberatley violent

Same as someone swinging a punch at someone would be

Neither are acceptable in a game of football
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Why did you say the McArthur incident was just a yellow last night then? He certainly wasn't trying to challenge for the ball.
 
as above.

Its easier to make this a yellow than have dozens of reds correctly issued and p1ss off the clubs.

Always been the way and no doubt, always will.

It hard to sell a game to TV companies if its 9v 9 and nobody pays to actually see the referee make the right calls..part of the panto which is....is turning the referee into the bad man.

Rest assured, that happens on my park and the player is walking, and always will
 
RustyRef said:
You don't really have a choice but to accept it though. You think it is a caution, which is fine, I personally think it is a nailed on red card, as did a PGMOL, FIFA Elite, referee. That isn't to say he is right either, but there will always be disagreements in refereeing and football.
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And now, because the 'boss' of that "PGMOL, FIFA Elite referee" has concluded that he made a clear mistake, does this mean that those who were going red now have "no choice but to accept it" as a Yellow? ;).

You'd think that if there really had been a new directive to punish such offenses with a red card then they would have backed Taylor on this one ...
 
Bless, and theres me expecting an honest apology, something like..... Governor, I'm sorry, I bow to your more observant eyes on this, I'll be more careful not to make the same mistake in the future on any of my games'.....That would have easily appeased me!!! :angel:
 
Russell Jones said:
And now, because the 'boss' of that "PGMOL, FIFA Elite referee" has concluded that he made a clear mistake, does this mean that those who were going red now have "no choice but to accept it" as a Yellow? ;).

You'd think that if there really had been a new directive to punish such offenses with a red card then they would have backed Taylor on this one ...
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PGMOL don't have anything to do with the appeal hearings, and lets face it they are always pretty much a lottery.
 
Ciley Myrus said:
As did this referee. I sincerely hope and trust the red is upheld. But even then if it is, am sure somebody somewhere despite it being issued by a FIFA elite ref and then backed up by an educated panel, will still come back and say no, its wrong.
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am sure somebody somewhere despite it NOT being backed up by a educated panel will still come back and say it was a red.

Oh wait somebody already has. I guess we can't use that elite and educated decision speech anymore because we counter our own argument in the next page by saying its a political decision etc etc.

The fact of the matter is this decision was not in accordance with the laws of the game and that is why it couldn't be backed up. We have had plenty of review panel decision in the past who have backed up the field decision even though it did not favour clubs.
 
Your educated panel, am led to believe, consists of a ex player or manager....a FA board member and someone from within the FA who has experience within the game, which I have always taken to be the ex referee. Given nobody will come out and tell you the 3 folk involved, this of course could be miles off the mark
Chances of all 3 being referee minded are zero. I suppose 2 of the 3 could have knowledge of the laws of the game, with hopefully 1 of them being an ex ref

So ex ref says red.....other two say yellow....not much the referee can do

To relate to the grass roots in which I would guess most folk on here would be imvolved. Do you suddenly stop reporting managers just because you feel a panel would let you down. Hopefully not. The best you can do as referee is to referee what is in front of you.

As someone else said, in a Champ league game, the only issues arising here would be if you did not red card the player.
 
RustyRef said:
PGMOL referees have been told to go red if a player kicks an opponent when the ball isn't playable. Already happened before with Lansbury and Xhaka, and if Taylor hadn't sent off it would have affected his assessment.
....
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Why do I, as a Manchester City supporter, not believe this? (even before it was rescinded).

This was only red to even things out.

(Taylor just gave a FK last night for an after-the-ball petty kick at a player.)
 
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It concerns me that people believe that the red card was to even things out. No self respecting referee would fall foul of this. It was a correct dismissal, he deliberately kicked the opponent. In my opinion if a referee calls this a trip and a caution, you're asking for injuries and retribution - particularly in this day and age.

Taylor was let down by the panel who quite evidently still believe football is the same as it was 30 years ago.
 
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