A&H

When to book and when not too !

ByronCoach

ByronCoach

New Member
Hi all, first of all i have been wandering the site for some time and love to read the posts and information which all helps and aid my learning of the game we all love. I will be attending my first ref's course later this year to help aid my development as a football coach.

NOW

What i want to ask is this, during a game today U13's league game a player (who has previous for bad temper) lashed out at a player in the game the ref stopped it and told him to calm down, next he went in 2 footed on a player the ref blew and warned him again ! then the same player lost the ball and decided to win it back by going through the young lad in possession from behind (his 3rd major foul) ref blew up and told him that if he did anymore it would be a card next time !
The player then got himself involved in a off the ball situation where he pushed a player in the back and pushed him over the ref had seen this and blew up NOW im expecting see a card at this point he comes across to the manager and says do you want to sub him? Mangers reply "No he is my best player" ref then told the lad he will not continue to tolerate it ! This was his 4th incident in the game.
At half time his manager subbed the player (as in our league they/you can only be made at half time or if an injury occurs in the first)

After the game i will always shake the ref's hand and wish him well despite if i agree with him or not (he is the educated one not me currently) i asked him why he had not booked the player and is his primary concern in the game the players safety! He agreed it was and said he was close to booking him but he does not want to be giving yellow or red cards out to 12 year old kids ?

My question to you fellow refs is this, after reading what i have put what would you do and is giving the player a card teaching him that what he is doing on the pitch is wrong.


n.b.
Hope you dont mind me posting this and if a mod feels it needs moving to a different forum thread please feel free to do so.
 
The Referee Store
Very early on i would have stopped the game and said to the coach "either you sub him and cool him off or I'll have no option but to control his behaviour with cards." A u12 player called me a cheat last season so i loudly reprimanded him and said i didn't want to hear from him again and told his coach what he'd said, he was taken off at half time.
 
How experienced is the referee you had?

I'm sure most of us here would agree after the public word. His next challenge he would of just set himself up to be booked regardless of the fact it was two footed.

The way you've described it, I'm guessing that there was no contact with your player so it would have been a caution perhaps? Then maybe the caution would have calmed him down, or helped the manager think to sub him before he got sent off.

It was pointless of the referee asking the coach to sub him, he's identified the player is causing him a problem so he has his cards.

The players age shouldn't really have an affect. Yes when I do youth, I show more empathy but in the situation you've talked about the player IMO is lucky to be on the pitch and it was risky of the referee keeping him on, as he could of hurt one of your players with a poor challenge or one of your players take the laws into their own hands and but a hard challenge in on him.
 
There are some referees out there that believe you shouldn't book anybody below 14, or whatever age they think. Absolutely idiotic philosophy. I wonder if he was one of those, or didn't now how to handle the scenario due to a lack of experience.

I'm opposed to asking a coach for a substitution when a player has clearly crossed the line (requested sub for calling you a cheat Dan, really?). I firmly believe the worst possible thing you can do to some of these kids is patronise them by mollycoddling them. I was in my second year of high school at 13 years old, so by then I certainly had a sense of right and wrong, definitely had a sense of what's appropriate or allowed on the pitch, and a sense of responsibility. Plenty old enough to be held accountable.

I would have no problems booking a player for aggression at this age. For things like that I'll probably book them quicker than adults!

'lashed out' can mean a few things, and depending on the severity the response can vary from a word to a red card, depending on the aggression, force, and manner. 2 footed challenge? Again, depends on the force and how close to the player as to how problematic it was.

Basically, it's hard to say what the response to any individual foul should have been, but you shouldn't be giving players multiple warnings. You'll hear about roadblocks when you do the course., but it's basically escalating your response to players. It's pointless repeating the same response ('don't do it....don't do it....don't do it...'). You're undermining your own authority and showing the players that you're too weak to take action. 2nd warning shouldn't have happened.
3rd warning? Just getting ridiculous.
As for the pushing incident? Straight red for me. Yes, at this age too. The referee's response there was just farcical.

The response about not wanting to give cards out (which, apparently, means no matter what happens) is horrendous, and that referee should not be refereeing youth football at all while he carries that attitude.
 
Sorry @CapnBloodbeard, it was confused. The words in quotations i have never had to use but would if needed. The u12 who said "the ref is a cheat " got a very public reprimand that all the other players could hear (using my best stern teacher voice) as it was a corner and all bar 2 or 3 were within 20 yards then after corner as i moved upfield i callef to his "he called me a cheat so you can choose how to deal with him but if he pipes up again he will be carded or off". In less than 5 minutes he was subbed. Was only 15 mins in, his side were already 2 down after 2 fk's from handballs. I could understand his frustration to a degree.
 
ByronCoach - what is the format of theU13s league in your area? Where I referee, U13s is a structured set up with league appointed referees. At this stage it's a big boys game and we are expected to apply the LOTG. Based on the incidents you describe I would expect the player to have been cautioned or sent off depending upon the exact nature of the incidents. Sounds like the referee simply wasn't doing his/her job.
 
*refchat public service announcement*

We have had many heated debates on the subject of children and the use of cautions/reds in the past.

While this remians civil it will be allowed. IF it shows signs of descending into argument and ranting the thread will be closed and warning points may be dished out.

And in case your wondering, Yes I did wake up on the wrong side of the bed this morning :D
 
At U11, players migrate from mini-soccer to football, and from mini-soccer laws to standard LotG. This is the age at which I start carding, albeit very, very rare at U11. Having said that, I was mentoring a young L9 on the first of his six qualifying games on Saturday, on an U11's game, and there was an incident within that where an away player broke away with the ball at the half-way line, and a home player (and they were a very good, skilled and disciplined team) grabbed the breaking player and pulled him down to the ground. A foul was correctly given, but I commented to the referee afterwards that it should have been a yellow. There is a difference between clumsy U11's, and U11's that know precisely what they are doing. I think we have to judge accordingly, based upon the offence - for U11. U12 though, I think we underestimate how sneaky players can be (they watch it on the TV all the time, of course) and if you do the crime, you do the time (so to speak).

I think we also do ourselves a disservice if we don't book when necessary at youth: we are setting up players to believe they won't get booked for offences that they should be booked for. We might also be underestimating the response we will get from coaches/parents etc - a few seasons ago I dismissed an U14 for OFFINABUS, and the manager came up to me after the match to thank me, as he just won't listen to the coaches.
 
The age old argument of what is the "correct" age to start carding players, something many will never agree on.

Was at a referee's meeting at the county FA one night when this very discussion was on the agenda. One referee stood up and suggested no one under the age of 18 should ever receive a card, which was greeted with loud gasps around the room.

Seems a lot of leagues/referees I have watched have adopted the unwritten rule of no cards at u12 and under. One game my son was playing in last season, forward is chasing a bouncing through ball, defender running back along side, keeper come flying out of his area and swats the ball away with the palm of his hand. Free kick given. One parent politely asks the question "is that not a red card offence?". The home team linesman, who was FA appointed mentor to the young referee, responded by saying "We try to avoid carding at this age"...

I admit in the past I have probably been too lenient with a few incidents due to the player's age, but at the same time believe once players start 11v11 at U13s, they are more than old enough to know better and should expect on field punishment. The managers I have spoken to prior to ref'n U13 matches have been more than happy with this approach.

As for the match Byron describes in the opening, 4 incident involving the same player without proper sanction is too much. The incidents described don't appear to be trivial or minor offences either and worthy of being carded in their own right, especially 2 footed challenges. Failure to deal with these incidents appropriately sends the wrong message to the players. Every player on the pitch would also expect 4 or 5 chances without sanction otherwise the referee is opening himself up to accusations and complaints along the lines of "He got 4 chances, why don't I?". Also sounds like poor coaching, even if the referee fails to deal with the incidents appropriately, the manager should have been calling his player over to "have a word!"
 
No cards U/18? I've heard a lot of dumb things, but I think that's literally the dumbest thing I've ever heard when it comes to referees. For so many reasons. I once had a national instructor say at a tournament that cards shouldn't be given to U/14 and below. Also utterly idiotic. And I know from some of the crap I started when I was U/14-U/16!!!

I've already mentioned my experience with an U/12 team; anybody who refereed that team would no longer believe that players that age shouldn't be booked.

I refereed the U/11 Futsal nationals a few years back. These kids knew what they were doing than most adults, although they're at the period where they're still trying to figure out how to play within the laws. Most red cards were actually at this age, and largely for mandatory offences. Many DOGSO offences, and many yellow card offences (for blatant offences as well), though there were a few other scenarios. I remember one case where a player was booked and flipped the bird to the referee with both hands!!

Like I said, full sized games in my area start at U/10. My first caution was to an U/10 player, after multiple warnings. I myself was booked once in an U/10 match (though I still insist it was a bad decision!). After the card I gave, a parent said that was probably the best thing I could have done for that player. Some kids know that 'having a word' doesn't mean squat, but cards are pretty serious due to their rarity.
 
Didn't send a U10 player off in my first season when he kicked another player after he'd been given a foul. Still haunts me to this day, wondering why I let him stay on the pitch.
 
I don't do many kids games, usually only a few local county cup games when needed, but I'll admit to being slightly more lenient on younger players. Mostly this is because you can often tell when there is less malice in their actions (I know we are not able to judge intent), but there is a line, especially with persistent infringement and excessive force/violent conduct.

I have sent off two 14yo kids (in different matches), one for DOGSO-H and one for two cautions, and in both cases did not receive a single complaint. It is perfectly accepted that at 11v11 any player can be cautioned or sent off, the difference for me is how to handle the players - in the case of the OP the ref has made a massive rod for his own back by publicly telling the player he is on a final warning - at that point he must follow up his warning or he undermines himself for the rest of the game.
 
My 2p worth...
Last season I was unofficially refereeing many U11-U12 games and always used the stepped approach, and that seemed to work.
 
Ok.....under the LOTG for u11 & u12 football, the normal laws apply for law 12.

There some modifications made to the normal LOTG for these age groups, but law 12 is unchanged.

And this after the FA's Youth Development Review which looked at all aspects of youth football and made significant changes to the youth game.
 
Had many a caution/ordering off when refereeing at U12-16 level, mainly for violent conduct and dissent though. Very rarely do you get reckless tackles at this level.

I had no qualms in issuing sanctions, but in saying that I do agree that management of the game is a lot easier at youth level, which I always tried to do where possible.
 
Not a single referee "wants" to be giving cards to 12 year olds. However, as referees, we have a responsibility to enforce the LotG, no matter the age of the players.

Admittedly, there is always a certain leniency with younger kids, challenges are often clumsy rather than reckless/dangerous, but certain offences (dissent/OFFINABUS/DOGSO to name a few) are non-negotiable. You can only give so many warnings and the example in the OP is proof that warnings just don't work unless action follows. Cards are there as a way to control the match, a referee who fails to follow up on warnings will lose his/her credibility pretty quickly!
 
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