The Ref Stop

When does appealing become dissent / was I wrong to sin bin?

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The Gump

The Gump

Well-Known Member
Level 6 Referee
Genuinely not looking for affirmation so please feel free to criticise, but looking for opinions/advice/comments on a game I refereed midweek.

To set the scene, Local Sunday league game, Div 3 out of 3. Refereed home team four times already this season, first time refereeing away team. Home team nothing to play for, away team need a win to stand chance of promotion. Bit of previous between the two teams as home team beat away team in Semi-Final of local cup, with away team subsequently objecting to eligibility of a home team player, and the league hearing the matter on the same evening as the game.

All told, the game was absolutely grand to referee and actually quite enjoyable/challenging largely as a result of the away team's constant appealing for absolutely everything, and I mean everything. I completely accept they're entitled to appeal but it quickly became tiresome so whilst there was no actual dissent, despite using various verbal tools to try to neutralise it - loud "No's", "Never", "Play on" etc - I then used the stepped approach. Quiet word with one player, very public word with another before finally, after about 30 to 35 minutes, paused play to call the captain over who was informed whilst appealing was fine, he needed to get on top of the extent of it and any low-level whining afterwards. He did a good job to be fair so after that the appeals toned right down, with several "Get on with it's" from the skipper.

Fast forward to 85th minute. Away team have gone from winning 3-0 to it being 3-2. Award a free kick against away team left back just outside the right hand side of the box for a clear careless foul (not SPA). With his back to me, he shouts very loudly "F*** off" for everyone to hear. Whilst it's the first complaint since the first half, it's very public and, to my mind, clearly dissent so it's a YC sin-bin and an early finish for him. There's no outrage from the away team, though he's politely and calmly pleading his case that it wasn't directed at me.

Game ends 3-2 after a frantic but fair and largely uneventful last five minutes (I cut the grass on a penalty claim from the home team in the last minute - some contact but attacker had lost control of the ball already and it was going unchallenged to the keepers hand when there was some contact, but not enough for him to go down as he did and possibly the contact "sought"). Sin binned player spoke to my post-game away from the pitch whilst we were getting changed to apologise but, again calmly and politely, saying it really wasn't directed at me but he was frustrated at himself as he knew he'd given a foul away. I expressed sympathy with him and accepted what he was saying was likely the case, but that by shouting loudly "F*** off" it's very much open to be considered dissent, particularly after events of the first half. He understood, we shook hands, and all was good.

My questions for the bright minds on here are this:

1. How do you deal with teams who are constantly, loudly appealing with occasional grumbles about decisions not been given?
2. Was I harsh/wrong to sin-bin? I don't think I was even though I can fully accept his account that it wasn't directed at me, but I'm open to a difference of opinion given the behaviour of the team had significantly improved over the last two thirds of the game and how much time was left.
 
The Ref Stop
1. Sounds like you have done the right thing. There is little to be done about appealing but it does generally foster into dissent... Which you have to jump all over which you've done. Sounds like you handled it well. You could take appealing every decision to be dissent as well so can take that angle.
2. It's never directed at you, so take that with a pinch of salt. As he had his back to you it's always hard to be certain, alot easier when they are looking at you but ultimately you saw it as a public disagreement or protest to your decision and into the bin he goes.

(Also await with much eagerness the band of merry men and or ladies who will tell you this should have been a red card 🤣)
 
JamesL said:
1. Sounds like you have done the right thing. There is little to be done about appealing but it does generally foster into dissent... Which you have to jump all over which you've done. Sounds like you handled it well. You could take appealing every decision to be dissent as well so can take that angle.
2. It's never directed at you, so take that with a pinch of salt. As he had his back to you it's always hard to be certain, alot easier when they are looking at you but ultimately you saw it as a public disagreement or protest to your decision and into the bin he goes.

(Also await with much eagerness the band of merry men and or ladies who will tell you this should have been a red card 🤣)
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Many thanks James. The sin-bin was easily sold and no one complained, but I think I'd have struggled to sell RC for OFFINABUS! If he was up in my face screaming it then it's different, but no way would I view what he said, how he said it, and where he said it, as OFFINABUS though some would I'm sure!
 
The Gump said:
Many thanks James. The sin-bin was easily sold and no one complained, but I think I'd have struggled to sell RC for OFFINABUS! If he was up in my face screaming it then it's different, but no way would I view what he said, how he said it, and where he said it, as OFFINABUS though some would I'm sure!
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I am not suggesting it should be but evidence in previous posts suggests others may hold an alternative view! I might be wrong or course 🙂
 
1. Pretty much how you managed it.
2. While how he means it (directs it) is important, its much more important how a reasonable neutral person perceives it to be.

The logic behind point two is, if a similar thing happens 5 minus later and you decide do deal with it differently, then it's easy to sell because everyone else has also perceived it differently.
 
The Gump said:
Genuinely not looking for affirmation so please feel free to criticise, but looking for opinions/advice/comments on a game I refereed midweek.

To set the scene, Local Sunday league game, Div 3 out of 3. Refereed home team four times already this season, first time refereeing away team. Home team nothing to play for, away team need a win to stand chance of promotion. Bit of previous between the two teams as home team beat away team in Semi-Final of local cup, with away team subsequently objecting to eligibility of a home team player, and the league hearing the matter on the same evening as the game.

All told, the game was absolutely grand to referee and actually quite enjoyable/challenging largely as a result of the away team's constant appealing for absolutely everything, and I mean everything. I completely accept they're entitled to appeal but it quickly became tiresome so whilst there was no actual dissent, despite using various verbal tools to try to neutralise it - loud "No's", "Never", "Play on" etc - I then used the stepped approach. Quiet word with one player, very public word with another before finally, after about 30 to 35 minutes, paused play to call the captain over who was informed whilst appealing was fine, he needed to get on top of the extent of it and any low-level whining afterwards. He did a good job to be fair so after that the appeals toned right down, with several "Get on with it's" from the skipper.

Fast forward to 85th minute. Away team have gone from winning 3-0 to it being 3-2. Award a free kick against away team left back just outside the right hand side of the box for a clear careless foul (not SPA). With his back to me, he shouts very loudly "F*** off" for everyone to hear. Whilst it's the first complaint since the first half, it's very public and, to my mind, clearly dissent so it's a YC sin-bin and an early finish for him. There's no outrage from the away team, though he's politely and calmly pleading his case that it wasn't directed at me.

Game ends 3-2 after a frantic but fair and largely uneventful last five minutes (I cut the grass on a penalty claim from the home team in the last minute - some contact but attacker had lost control of the ball already and it was going unchallenged to the keepers hand when there was some contact, but not enough for him to go down as he did and possibly the contact "sought"). Sin binned player spoke to my post-game away from the pitch whilst we were getting changed to apologise but, again calmly and politely, saying it really wasn't directed at me but he was frustrated at himself as he knew he'd given a foul away. I expressed sympathy with him and accepted what he was saying was likely the case, but that by shouting loudly "F*** off" it's very much open to be considered dissent, particularly after events of the first half. He understood, we shook hands, and all was good.

My questions for the bright minds on here are this:

1. How do you deal with teams who are constantly, loudly appealing with occasional grumbles about decisions not been given?
2. Was I harsh/wrong to sin-bin? I don't think I was even though I can fully accept his account that it wasn't directed at me, but I'm open to a difference of opinion given the behaviour of the team had significantly improved over the last two thirds of the game and how much time was left.
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Hi, I hope you enjoed the game.
I am a bit strict when it comes to appealing about my decisions which were already taken.
I apply the LOTG: I show the YC and I, moreover, give an indirect free kick if the ball is in play. Once I whistled against a player from Team (A) protesting in his penalty area while the ball was with his team for a promising attack on the other half of the pitch. That decision resulted in stopping a promising attack for Team (A) and scoring a goal for Team (B). I can remember that I did it once in the first minute and it was clear from the start that it will never work that way with me.
 
The “off” suggests to me that it was dissent rather than upset at himself. Just the F bomb would make more sense if it was at himself.

As far as red, in the US it would be more likely as there is a cultutral difference on F bombs.
 
socal lurker said:
The “off” suggests to me that it was dissent rather than upset at himself. Just the F bomb would make more sense if it was at himself.

As far as red, in the US it would be more likely as there is a cultutral difference on F bombs.
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Aye, I could have accepted the frustration point without the off.
 
See for a first time a f*** off, I would probably have a word possibly with captain present. I think f off is a pretty normal frustration reaction. But one you need to clamp down on.

But I always, without a doubt, find my game gets infinitely better after a sin-bin.
 
Sounds like frustration than dissent, but of course YHTBT to really see what the body language was like. Contemplating on these decisions is how we learn and grow as officials. Every ref has their own tolerance level and players should be able to learn that - especially if you have reffed before.
 
OldNavyRef said:
See for a first time a f*** off, I would probably have a word possibly with captain present. I think f off is a pretty normal frustration reaction. But one you need to clamp down on.

But I always, without a doubt, find my game gets infinitely better after a sin-bin.
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That's what I'd probably do too in the circumstances I described, but following the behaviour of that team in the first half, they were already on their last warning and no player had any doubt about that. Even with just 5 or 6 minutes left, it felt important to follow that final warning through.
 
Viridis1886

Thread 'Dealing with chronic dissent'

Had one of those days when it was just one of those. A game with more whine than Majestic.

I've done both teams a few times and both have a reputation for it. Managed to give one really easy sin bin, but the question is how best to manage the multiple low level dissent from a broad range on both sides.

Except for the one easy one (public) it was hard to say that any other single player exceeded my threshold. Cumulatively however it did (persistent), but I couldn't quite manouver the situation to issue a caution for an individual. I spoke to players and captains to set the opportunity up...
  • Like

It sounds really similar to a game I had.
 
Viridis1886 said:
Viridis1886

Thread 'Dealing with chronic dissent'

Had one of those days when it was just one of those. A game with more whine than Majestic.

I've done both teams a few times and both have a reputation for it. Managed to give one really easy sin bin, but the question is how best to manage the multiple low level dissent from a broad range on both sides.

Except for the one easy one (public) it was hard to say that any other single player exceeded my threshold. Cumulatively however it did (persistent), but I couldn't quite manouver the situation to issue a caution for an individual. I spoke to players and captains to set the opportunity up...
  • Like

It sounds really similar to a game I had.
Click to expand...
Yes. I think the key difference was in part by luck, and in part by making my own luck, the outcome was better. That is not at all a criticism of you by the way, but more to highlight that fortune plays a big part.

LUCK
1. A captain who was willing and able to do his job as you'd want a captain to do - not all are like that.
2. The opposing team behaved impeccably throughout, even when I turned down penalty there was not a murmuring of dissent.
3. It was a clean game throughout, with no bad challenges, no animosity or aggro, and only two other YCs (both for the away team, one SPA and one DRP by their keeper).
4. Nothing controversial arose all game.

MADE MY OWN LUCK
1. The stepped approach over a relatively short period of time (10 to 15 mins) in the first half worked.
2. Pre match briefing to captain, and captain actually doing his job well and controlling his players.
3. Despite the initial appealing and low-level whinging, and how annoying it was, I never stopped talking and being willing to explain decisions (quickly) to their players.
4. My wider decision making was good OR my positioning at least gave any decision credibility.
5. Followed through with the warning - this happened late, and as a result had no impact on player behaviour in the game, but should serve me well when I referee them next season.
 
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