When can a non-interfering offside player get involved again?

[GraemeS]

In an otherwise incredibly dull game on the line yesterday, I had one slightly awkward moment with an offside call in the second half.

Ball is pumped forward from the blue defence with the offside line just in the reds own half - blue attacker is marginally offside, but it's clear the ball is running through to the red GK despite the attacker chasing, so I don't flag. For whatever reason, rather than playing the ball with ages of space, the GK tries to shepherd the ball out. And on a boggy pitch, that gives the attacker time to catch up and pressure him, although he does just about manage to get it out.

Defending team try to restart with a FK just inside their own half (obviously not, would be way back with GK at best!) but both me and the ref are saying goal kick which they don't like. My question is if I should have considered the attacker to become active when he starts to pressure the GK, or if the fact that the GK easily had time to play the ball could be seen as resetting the offside phase?

 

[RustyRef]

Once it is clear the attacker is chasing you really should be getting the flag up, most referees cover that in their pre-match instructions.

In the keeper shepherded the ball out presumably he at no point had the ball under control, so I would say the offside hasn't been reset and the flag should be up. The last thing the referee needs is that attacker to catch up and commit an act of VC or SFP, or even worse the keeper and you end up with a red card and an IDFK for offside.

 

[JamesL]

Once it has been deliberately played by the opposition with one mind on the clarification of "immediately challenging opponent for the ball".

@RustyRef has it spot on here. If there is one player and clearly no other players chasing down the ball, put the flag up.
1) the referee won't thank you if he has to sprint 50-60 yards to keep up with play and then you raise the flag
2) you avoid a straight forward, accepted offside idfk escalating to something else.

Had similar advice from an EFL assistant observing whilst out with injury.

 

[GraemeS]

I perhaps haven't clearly explained the bit that confused me then. Although the attacker was chasing, there was no way he was beating the GK to the ball, and was still 20-30 yards away when the GK reached the ball, so I don't see how that can qualify as "immediately challenging" for the ball? And stopping play when a GK would normally just collect the ball is unnecessarily busy refereeing that will wind players up.

I kept the flag down based on the idea that the GK was clearly in control and therefore resetting the offside even without a touch. Otherwise the logical extreme of this is that if the ball stopped then he could shield it indefinitely knowing that he'd get the IFK as soon as he's challenged. So there must be a point where I'm entitled to consider him essentially in control regardless?

 

[socal lurker]

Until the GK plays the ball, the attacker who was OS when the ball was last played or touched by his teammate remains "off his side" and unable to participate. So if the GK doesn't touch the ball, he absolutely remains restricted regardless of how long it takes. The glossary defines play as requiring a touch of the ball. So I think you were wrong there.

I agree that, as described, it isn't a situation where the flag should go up early, if the ball is clearly going to be easily collected by the GK.

The immediacy of challenging for the ball is immediately after the GK touch, which we never even got hear.

As you describe it, I have OS--the OSP attacker challenged the GK for the ball before the GK touched it and while the ball was in play. The offense occurred once the attacker got close enough to challenge the GK.

 

[RustyRef]

I perhaps haven't clearly explained the bit that confused me then. Although the attacker was chasing, there was no way he was beating the GK to the ball, and was still 20-30 yards away when the GK reached the ball, so I don't see how that can qualify as "immediately challenging" for the ball? And stopping play when a GK would normally just collect the ball is unnecessarily busy refereeing that will wind players up.

I kept the flag down based on the idea that the GK was clearly in control and therefore resetting the offside even without a touch. Otherwise the logical extreme of this is that if the ball stopped then he could shield it indefinitely knowing that he'd get the IFK as soon as he's challenged. So there must be a point where I'm entitled to consider him essentially in control regardless?

With respect, that isn't your job though. Put the flag up and let the referee make the decision, he can either give it or he can wait to see if the keeper picks it up. Even if you don't flag immediately, certainly once it is clear the attacker is getting close the flag just has to go up.

 

[JamesL]

I perhaps haven't clearly explained the bit that confused me then. Although the attacker was chasing, there was no way he was beating the GK to the ball, and was still 20-30 yards away when the GK reached the ball, so I don't see how that can qualify as "immediately challenging" for the ball? And stopping play when a GK would normally just collect the ball is unnecessarily busy refereeing that will wind players up.

I kept the flag down based on the idea that the GK was clearly in control and therefore resetting the offside even without a touch. Otherwise the logical extreme of this is that if the ball stopped then he could shield it indefinitely knowing that he'd get the IFK as soon as he's challenged. So there must be a point where I'm entitled to consider him essentially in control regardless?

The offside is reset after a deliberate play by an opponent, or touched by another onside attacker, providing the offside player is no longer in an offside position.

Smart goalkeeping not to play the ball really.

I think I understand the scenario, and standby that, as soon as it becomes apparent there is likely to be some GK/ player interaction the flag has to go up.

 

[socal lurker]

With respect, that isn't your job though. Put the flag up and let the referee make the decision, he can either give it or he can wait to see if the keeper picks it up. Even if you don't flag immediately, certainly once it is clear the attacker is getting close the flag just has to go up.

I disagree with your first sentence. It absolutely is the job of the AR to determine whether an OS offense occurred and to only raise the flag if the offense occurred.

As described, there was no offense when the through ball was going through as it was going to the keeper in a way the keeper wouldn't be challenged. That isn't an OS offense. (See diagram 4--a non touch can only be punished as infterfering with play before the touch occurs if the OSP attacker is likely to get the ball--which was not the case here.

From a process perspective, @GraemeS was correct: he did not raise the flag later when the attacker got close, as he believed the GK "control" was enough to re-set OS so he believed that no infraction occurred. His process was 100% right. But I believe his analysis was incorrect: the non-touch was not a play so OS did not reset and he should have flagged once the attacker was close enough to challenge for the ball--not to give the R a chance to make a decision but because an offense had actually occurred.

 

[JamesL]

I disagree with your first sentence. It absolutely is the job of the AR to determine whether an OS offense occurred and to only raise the flag if the offense occurred.

As described, there was no offense when the through ball was going through as it was going to the keeper in a way the keeper wouldn't be challenged. That isn't an OS offense. (See diagram 4--a non touch can only be punished as infterfering with play before the touch occurs if the OSP attacker is likely to get the ball--which was not the case here.

From a process perspective, @GraemeS was correct: he did not raise the flag later when the attacker got close, as he believed the GK "control" was enough to re-set OS so he believed that no infraction occurred. His process was 100% right. But I believe his analysis was incorrect: the non-touch was not a play so OS did not reset and he should have flagged once the attacker was close enough to challenge for the ball--not to give the R a chance to make a decision but because an offense had actually occurred.

Absolutely, as the law is written.
This is bigger picture and should be rare (although I had it 3 times in one game recently and received positive feedback for being quick) and it is how it is taught here. If an offside player is heading on collision course with a keeper, then the expectation is the flag is raised. Quickly. Early. Even if not exactly correct in law. It prevents unnecessary injury. Misconduct.
And if the keeper picks it up the R can thumbs up the AR and if he thinks the collision is going to happen then he blows the whistle and stops play to prevent the above

I am certain there used to be something about if one player is chasing a ball and is only going to commit an offence an early flag was acceptable but if 2 players the AR must wait to see if the onside or offside player reaches it 1st, in the back of the book but I can't find it now.

 

[RustyRef]

I disagree with your first sentence. It absolutely is the job of the AR to determine whether an OS offense occurred and to only raise the flag if the offense occurred.

As described, there was no offense when the through ball was going through as it was going to the keeper in a way the keeper wouldn't be challenged. That isn't an OS offense. (See diagram 4--a non touch can only be punished as infterfering with play before the touch occurs if the OSP attacker is likely to get the ball--which was not the case here.

From a process perspective, @GraemeS was correct: he did not raise the flag later when the attacker got close, as he believed the GK "control" was enough to re-set OS so he believed that no infraction occurred. His process was 100% right. But I believe his analysis was incorrect: the non-touch was not a play so OS did not reset and he should have flagged once the attacker was close enough to challenge for the ball--not to give the R a chance to make a decision but because an offense had actually occurred.

My point, as JamesL has also said, was that in England it is expected that the flag goes up quickly so that the referee can make the decision whether to play on or blow quickly to prevent a possible clash. I can't remember many games I did at senior levels where this wasn't implicitly covered by the referee in the pre-match instructions.

 

[socal lurker]

Absolutely, as the law is written.
This is bigger picture and should be rare (although I had it 3 times in one game recently and received positive feedback for being quick) and it is how it is taught here. If an offside player is heading on collision course with a keeper, then the expectation is the flag is raised. Quickly. Early. Even if not exactly correct in law. It prevents unnecessary injury. Misconduct.
And if the keeper picks it up the R can thumbs up the AR and if he thinks the collision is going to happen then he blows the whistle and stops play to prevent the above

I am certain there used to be something about if one player is chasing a ball and is only going to commit an offence an early flag was acceptable but if 2 players the AR must wait to see if the onside or offside player reaches it 1st, in the back of the book but I can't find it now.

I don’t disagree with that part at all—the same thing is taught here. (T’would be nice if they added the GK collision issue to the magic book.) But that’s not what @GraemeS described—he described a ball that was going cleanly to the GK where the attacker would still be 20-30 yards away from the GK. That doesn’t warrant a flag. But it does affect how soon the flag should go up for challenging the keeper once the GK is screwing around if appropriate to ensure there is not a collision.

it’s diagrams 4 in the magic book (which I referred to above) that shows the lone attacker pursuing and likely to get the ball. It’s either the one before or after that has two attackers and the wait and see instruction.

 

[JamesL]

I don’t disagree with that part at all—the same thing is taught here. (T’would be nice if they added the GK collision issue to the magic book.) But that’s not what @GraemeS described—he described a ball that was going cleanly to the GK where the attacker would still be 20-30 yards away from the GK. That doesn’t warrant a flag. But it does affect how soon the flag should go up for challenging the keeper once the GK is screwing around if appropriate to ensure there is not a collision.

it’s diagrams 4 in the magic book (which I referred to above) that shows the lone attacker pursuing and likely to get the ball. It’s either the one before or after that has two attackers and the wait and see instruction.

We arguing the same point then.

20-30 yards could be extreme but, in line with the good book an early flag is supportable where no other onside position player has the opportunity to play it


I am in agreement the OP has to allow some play to develop to decide whether the OSP is going to become active before he is allowed to.
But even 20-30 yards is no more than 3-4 seconds at full sprint (level dependant of course) so after 1 or 2 seconds the now OSP could be within 15 yards and is definitely in a position to immediately challenge (or worse) once the keeper does deliberately play it.

And again, it I am ref and chase this down, as I will, its a potential KMI, and at the last second the flag goes up, there will be no thanks. I'd be asking for an earlier flag, in line with attached diagram.

 

[GraemeS]

Yeah, I've always taken the "early flag" instruction to be purely about those ones where the ball is bouncing and GK is charging out with a potential high-speed collision at height. Didn't occur to me to apply that simply to save on running or even to avoid a having to potentially make a low-speed decision. I think I would have assumed an early flag in a situation like I had on Saturday would simply lead to accusations of being lazy and not wanting to follow play back!

It would also have actually had a material effect on the game - sticking the flag up straight away would be a FK just inside their own half, which given the place-kicks of that GK, could have directly resulted in an assist at the other end! Whereas the FK I probably should have given would have been right on his own goal line, to an extent that shepherding the ball out and taking the goal kick probably gained him 5 yards plus a more central position.

 

[JamesL]

Yeah, I've always taken the "early flag" instruction to be purely about those ones where the ball is bouncing and GK is charging out with a potential high-speed collision at height. Didn't occur to me to apply that simply to save on running or even to avoid a having to potentially make a low-speed decision. I think I would have assumed an early flag in a situation like I had on Saturday would simply lead to accusations of being lazy and not wanting to follow play back!

It would also have actually had a material effect on the game - sticking the flag up straight away would be a FK just inside their own half, which given the place-kicks of that GK, could have directly resulted in an assist at the other end! Whereas the FK I probably should have given would have been right on his own goal line, to an extent that shepherding the ball out and taking the goal kick probably gained him 5 yards plus a more central position.

I agree. I would say though that there is a skill to determine the point that the flag needs to go up. Not too early as it being completely incorrect and award an incorrect advantageous free kick and not too late to avoid keeper and attacker collisions.

You're right, if you flagged him immediately that's probably too quick..

Although I tend to find that showing your intention to flag an offside (the hold centrally while crabbing) is usually enough to stop the attacker chasing it anyway, and solves the whole issue.
Also if you go early, I would expect the referee to wait a moment to see how it develops, most likely attacker stops running, it goes to keeper and AR gets a thumbs up and we play on. No harm done.

 

[RustyRef]

It is one of those better safe than sorry moments. No one is going to remember you for flagging a bit too early, they certainly will if a late (or non) flag results in a collision, argument, injury, fight, yellow / red card, etc.

 

[Joe Harrison]

Obviously not applicable at all levels and in all situations, but recently in a game where I was AR, I verbalised "11 offside" in the exact situation described. Player was ten yards from my touchline and it was a marginal call.

I wouldn't usually do this, but for some reason this time I did. Attacker stopped, ball played through to GK and the game carried on. Situation acknowledged by the referee. The observer was sat in the stands behind me, heard me say this and saw the referees acknowledgement. This, I think, moved me up to outstanding (8.0) for advice/judgement and was mentioned as a positive in the referees observation too. Observer wrote on MOAS, "This was extremely proactive game management regarding offside which showed high levels of concentration to ensure the correct outcome was achieved and no players were harmed. Well done".

I wouldn't do this again if the player were to be any further than ten yards (as I wouldn't want to be shouting) or if I think the player couldn't hear me (crowd noise too great etc). But just letting the player know benefited all of us in this situation.

 

[Russell Jones]

I agree. I would say though that there is a skill to determine the point that the flag needs to go up. Not too early as it being completely incorrect and award an incorrect advantageous free kick and not too late to avoid keeper and attacker collisions.

You're right, if you flagged him immediately that's probably too quick..

Although I tend to find that showing your intention to flag an offside (the hold centrally while crabbing) is usually enough to stop the attacker chasing it anyway, and solves the whole issue.
Also if you go early, I would expect the referee to wait a moment to see how it develops, most likely attacker stops running, it goes to keeper and AR gets a thumbs up and we play on. No harm done.

You're right James, there is absolutely an art to timing when the flag actually needs to go up. And that point is when an offside offense has actually occurred. In the vast majority of cases, this is when the offside attacker has played or challenged for the ball. But in those situations where it becomes clear that the attacker in an offside position is the only attacker who might credibly get to the ball, the flag can go up earlier to avoid a collision / frustration from players and the ref.

One of the biggest things I've become aware of since my recent AR promotion is the added focus from Observers & Coaches on getting the placement / timing (roughly) correct when it comes to offside offences. This becomes relevant if you start crabbing and slow down rather than continuing to sprint with the (potentially) offside attacker. Often times this can lead to an offside being given 10-20m away from the correct spot. And worst case, if another attacking player makes a late run for the ball then you can end up well out of position if you've slowed down at all. So I'm in the process of trying to break this habit of a (refereeing) lifetime!

With regard to the OP, IMO the flag needs to go up when the attacker (assuming he's still sprinting) is approx 10-15m from the GK, so still early enough for the referee to hit the whistle and stop play before any collision but no earlier than this .... and definitely not if the attacker slows down and refrains from challenging the GK (as no offence would have been committed).

 

[one]

Great thread. Didn't get a chance to read all but there are some cases when there are competing priorities. Through ball, Offside attacker and keeper are heading for a bad collision and a non offside attacker also chasing to challenge. Without a crystal ball it is an impossible task. Put flag up, offside player reads it and stops chase and team mate now has a chance. Blowing is incorrect without an offence. Not blowing means AR has helped the attacking team. Don't put flag up and you have a collision with a player who is offside and everyone blames AR for not flagging early.

 

[JamesL]

One of the biggest things I've become aware of since my recent AR promotion is the added focus from Observers & Coaches on getting the placement / timing (roughly) correct when it comes to offside offences. This becomes relevant if you start crabbing and slow down rather than continuing to sprint with the (potentially) offside attacker. Often times this can lead to an offside being given 10-20m away from the correct spot. And worst case, if another attacking player makes a late run for the ball then you can end up well out of position if you've slowed down at all. So I'm in the process of trying to break this habit of a (refereeing) lifetime!
).

This is good to read as it's actually something I identified I do albeit not thinking about free kick location.
It was following complaints "keep up with play lino" or "you're not in line lino".
It confused me as (trumpet blowing alert) one thing I can rarely be accused of is not being up with play.
And I recently identified it was exactly this, slowing down, knowing I was about to flag an offside offence. So when I raised the flag I would appear to be some yards 'behind' play

 

[refeire]

I once did a similar thing. An attacker was chasing the ball from the halfway but the ball had so much pace on it that it was going straight to the GK. I decided there's no point putting the flag up, just let it roll to the GK.

Post match I was told by an observer I still should have put the flag up because everyone in the ground is presuming he is onside when your flag stays down (even the observer said he wasn't sure whether I'd spotted he was actually offside), so put it up and then the referee can wave you down when it lands at the GK