The Ref Stop

Was this offside?

L

lawriejones

New Member
Level 7 Referee
Hi! My first post after months of lurking to pick up loads of useful tips and experience. Please forgive me if this subject has already been covered.

U18 girls game. Keeper has the ball in hands and takes a drop kick, All of the kicking keeper's team were inside their own half when she kicked, so no offside there. However, the kick is long. Defender is underneath it and backs into her own half in anticipation of the ball landing. No opponent challenges, so the defender has lots of time and good eyes on the ball. Attacker "gambles" and drifts deeper into the defender's half i.e. beyond the second last opponent, so is in an offside position (closer to the goal line than the ball and second-last opponent).

The defender has time to set herself up and tries to kick the ball on the volley, but gets it wrong. The ball skims off her shin and drops beautifully for the attacker who is through on goal.

The Laws of the Game state in Law 11:-

"Deliberate play is when a player has control of the ball with the possibility of:

passing the ball to a team-mate

gaining posssession of the ball

clearing the ball (e.g. by kicking or heading it)"

The pre-requisite for deliberate play seems to be that the player is already in control of the ball, not trying to get control of the ball. The player definitely made a deliberate attempt to play the ball but, in my opinion, was at no time in control of it.

Do you think this is a deliberlate play or not?

Many thanks in advance for any help and advice.
-​
 
The Ref Stop
It is neither here nor there since as written all attackers were in there own half when the ball was last played or touched by a team mate, therefore, no offside offence can be committed and therefore deliberate play is not a consideration.

I will humor it though. Deliberate play is very difficult to judge when written, because you have to be there and is very subjective.

But as you describe the ball has come along way, the defender has had time to coordinate their body movement, it is not a cAse of instinctive stretching. The only thing I feel from what is written is that the ball is in the air which is harder to control. I think though, again, as written the considerations I've mentioned outweigh that one here so I'd be inclined that if a deliberate play judgment had been needed this sounds like, and I stress sounds like, a deliberate play.
 
As I read it, there is no offside as the only teammate of the attacker playing the ball was the goalkeeper, and you've said she was onside at that moment.

You are maybe confusing the situation with one where a player is in an offside position when the ball is played, but a defender tries to play the ball and miskicks. That is where the 'deliberate' action comes into play. That is always a little debatable, but generally if it is a deflection or the player hasn't had a chance to control the ball, it is offside - otherwise it is onside.
 
JamesL said:
It is neither here nor there since as written all attackers were in there own half when the ball was last played or touched by a team mate, therefore, no offside offence can be committed and therefore deliberate play is not a consideration.

I will humor it though. Deliberate play is very difficult to judge when written, because you have to be there and is very subjective.

But as you describe the ball has come along way, the defender has had time to coordinate their body movement, it is not a cAse of instinctive stretching. The only thing I feel from what is written is that the ball is in the air which is harder to control. I think though, again, as written the considerations I've mentioned outweigh that one here so I'd be inclined that if a deliberate play judgment had been needed this sounds like, and I stress sounds like, a deliberate play.
Click to expand...
I could've saved myself some typing! 😄
 
Hi Lawrie. As not attacking player has touched the ball, and all attacking players were in an onside position when the keeper kicked it, no offside offence has occurred, whether or not the defender has made a deliberate play.
 
The Gump said:
Hi Lawrie. As not attacking player has touched the ball, and all attacking players were in an onside position when the keeper kicked it, no offside offence has occurred, whether or not the defender has made a deliberate play.
Click to expand...
I have a feeling OP knows this and is presenting the situation as a whataboutery type scenario
 
lawriejones said:
Hi! My first post after months of lurking to pick up loads of useful tips and experience. Please forgive me if this subject has already been covered.

U18 girls game. Keeper has the ball in hands and takes a drop kick, All of the kicking keeper's team were inside their own half when she kicked, so no offside there. However, the kick is long. Defender is underneath it and backs into her own half in anticipation of the ball landing. No opponent challenges, so the defender has lots of time and good eyes on the ball. Attacker "gambles" and drifts deeper into the defender's half i.e. beyond the second last opponent, so is in an offside position (closer to the goal line than the ball and second-last opponent).

The defender has time to set herself up and tries to kick the ball on the volley, but gets it wrong. The ball skims off her shin and drops beautifully for the attacker who is through on goal.

The Laws of the Game state in Law 11:-

"Deliberate play is when a player has control of the ball with the possibility of:

passing the ball to a team-mate

gaining posssession of the ball

clearing the ball (e.g. by kicking or heading it)"

The pre-requisite for deliberate play seems to be that the player is already in control of the ball, not trying to get control of the ball. The player definitely made a deliberate attempt to play the ball but, in my opinion, was at no time in control of it.

Do you think this is a deliberlate play or not?

Many thanks in advance for any help and advice.
-​
Click to expand...
Ignoring the fact it wouldn't be offside regardless because the attacker would need to be in an offside position from the original kick, I think you're placing too much emphasis on the word 'control' when the LOTG intends 'control' to mean different to 'possession'. As you can see, it says a player has control of the ball with the possibility of gaining possession, so these 2 things must be intended to mean different things. The defender has the possibility of gaining possession, so yes, it's a deliberate play.
 
Many thanks to everyone! All the comments have been very helpful. If, in future, a player is in an offside position when the keeper kicks from hands, I think I will "adapt" the Laws of the Game in my own mind to read as follows in similar circumstances (my addition in bold):-

"Deliberate play is when a player has a reasonable opportunity to gain control of the ball with the possibility of:

passing the ball to a team-mate

gaining posssession of the ball

clearing the ball (e.g. by kicking or heading it)"

So, in my OP, had the attacker been in an offside position when the keeper drop-kicked, the deliberate attempt by the defender to play the ball would have meant no offide offence in this case.

Thanks, again!
 
RefereeX said:
Ignoring the fact it wouldn't be offside regardless because the attacker would need to be in an offside position from the original kick, I think you're placing too much emphasis on the word 'control' when the LOTG intends 'control' to mean different to 'possession'. As you can see, it says a player has control of the ball with the possibility of gaining possession, so these 2 things must be intended to mean different things. The defender has the possibility of gaining possession, so yes, it's a deliberate play.
Click to expand...
This is very interesting. I can see that these are two separate ideas, but what could the LOTG intended "control" to mean then? Is there a better word that they could have used to make this clearer? or should we all think of it as @lawriejones edited it to be?
 
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