A&H

Violent Conduct?

M

Matthew

RefChat Addict
Had an interesting one at my brothers U18 game yesterday that I wanted to get some opinions on. Not often that I'm a spectator but there always seems to be a talking point.

Just to give a bit of background, the field they were playing on is a little tight with around five yards between the touchline of the 11v11 pitch and the mini-soccer pitch next to it. White v Orange with White leading 4-3 going into the last five minutes.

Anyway, White clear the ball up the pitch and the midfielder knocks the ball into Orange and wins the throw. At this point, the Orange defender pushed the white midfielder with a decent amount of force (two handed, in the chest), knocking the White midfielder into the subs (U8 I believe) from the mini soccer pitch who were standing between the two pitches. He knocked one of the subs over, but luckily managed to keep his balance. I hate to think what would've happened had he fallen over, the U8's could've been seriously injured.

The ref cautioned the Orange player.

At the time, I wasn't sure that he'd made the right decision and having spoken to one of my brothers teammates, who is also a ref, we both agreed that we thought it should've been a red. Personally, I'd consider the fact that he put the U8's on the adjacent pitch in danger, in addition to the force behind the shove to be violent conduct and therefore worthy of a red card.

What does everyone else think?
 
The Referee Store
Yes violent conduct all the way but also sounds like one of the players wanted to do handbags
 
VC for me. I know that excessive force has to be used but what constitutes excessive? I had a player slap someone yesterday. Not a lot of force in it but it was a clear slap to the face. He walked, but it left me wondering what level is enough for a send off. What if he had missed? As far as I'm concerned, if a player tries or succeeds in assaulting another(strike,kick,push) that is enough to walk. But am I being too touchy?
 
Mick. said:
I had a player slap someone yesterday. Not a lot of force in it but it was a clear slap to the face. He walked, but it left me wondering what level is enough for a send off. What if he had missed?
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Still a red, law says striking or attempting to strike. So, then to your point, I don't think you're being too touchy.

And I also agree, I think as you've said he used excessive force in it, and I think a red wouldn't have surprised me if I was there.
 
VC all day.
My best mate had a similar one. Tackle goes borderline YC for tackle. Player (victim) of the tackle stands up and pushes player who made the tackle in the back with a bit of force. That player then turns round and slaps him!!

Both get RC for VC.
After discussing this with my mate, we agreed that poss, if the Ayer didn't react by slapping the first player cod have been cautioned for USB -
 
VC for me too. Force obviously excessive if he fell over and collided with some kids, no matter how close. Easy to sell that imo. In normal circumstances, with players getting involved with handbags on the field, I most commonly caution for UB if it is just sticking chests out and giving it big potatoes, pushing and shoving. This only changes to VC if any contact is made above the shoulders, so grabbing the neck or face is red, slapping or attempting to slap is always red and swinging arms/punches no matter how accurate or effective is always red. There's a clear line for me between a shove in the chest and acting tough and aiming for the head intending to cause injury.
 
I see where you're coming from Ryan and the proximity of a kids pitch is obviously something that needs to be looked at, there should of course be adequate run-off space between pitches, especially where one is full sized and meant for adults and one junior pitch for kids, however; yes I think from the description it is sufficiently forceful to be VC, although the collided into kids angle, may well have tempered my view, who knows?
 
If the kid's pitch is so close that it's going to interfere with your decision making then perhaps the match should not be played as it would be considered unsafe to players on either/both pitches.
 
Thanks for the replies, it does appear that my instinct at the time was right! :)

To be honest, I'm really not sure if colliding with the kids has affected my view. From what I saw, there was 'excessive' force behind the shove and the proximity of the kids made it that much worse, at least in my mind. Just out of curiosity, does the fact that the ball was out of play make it any different? Part of the issue is what we consider to be 'excessive', as Mick says above, it's all very subjective.

I see where you're coming from Ryan, and the proximity of the two pitches is an issue. However, it can be managed proactively before it becomes a problem. I've reffed on that pitch numerous times and if there's a match on the mini soccer pitch I tend to go over before KO and request that the subs/coaches stand on the opposite side of the pitch (where there isn't another pitch). Not great, but i'd rather do that before KO than have an incident like this.
 
My point is that the proximity to the U8s has nothing to do with your decision to send the player off or not.
 
Fair enough. That's a case of "you had to be there" so I can't comment. Just wanted to make sure that the fact that there were young children near by didn't impact your decision.
 
you do come out with some strange points Ryan. You just wanted to make sure that the fact that there were young kids about didn't impact a decision? WHY? Yes the laws are the laws are the laws are the laws, regardless of location, standard/ability of participants, age of participants, weather, time of day, pre-conceived ideas about the teams, pitch condition, competition, and proximity of pitches ;) etc etc. BUT; if an adult has shoved another player with a questionable amount of force (questionable in that is down to you to determine no action required, caution for UB - adopting aggressive attitude, or dismiss for VC) the fact that a young child has been smashed into, would, naturally, be part of the decision making process in my opinion and would, naturally, make me lean towards a more severe sanction. I AGREE WITH YOU that it shouldn't in theory matter, but we don't apply the laws in some cold, clinical classroom situation where we all know the right answers, we apply the laws in the real world. Therefore, I disagree with your post above starting, 'my point is....
 
Because the young children nearby are not part of the match; if you, as the referee, feel that it is unsafe for them to be there then it's up to you to either require they not be there or not start the match. The question of young children being nearby is not a consideration for violent conduct.
 
I'm not saying the red card was wrong so long as it's justified according to the LOTG. To my knowledge, and you may prove me wrong if you can, there is nothing in the LOTG saying that if a young child just so happens to be around and that young child just so happens to be knocked over, a challenge then becomes a red card. What if the child had been run over in the course of a 50/50 ball? Would you still send the guy for VC? Probably not which means that the VC, like any offense, is 100% dependent on the action of the player, not the outcome of that action.
 
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just to clarify this 'excessive force' thing- that ONLY applies when you are grading the severity of a tackle.
Careless, Reckless and Excessive Force are the words you use to judge whether a card is required for a foul you have given, when the ball is involved.

Violent Conduct is something that happens when the ball isn't involved. And it is always a Red.
Not sending someone off for Striking/Attempting to Strike is wrong by law.

Having said that, there seems to be grey area for me. Personally, i struggle a lot with pushes.

I know that it shouldnt happen and iv seen so many reds for VC for a push in the pro game, but i just cant justify it to myself in saturday morning open age football. this is particularly true if its just a single push in the chest and the player has a few words back- this seems to happen a lot, and often the player who has been pushed doesn't even react. i always book the player who did the pushing, unless it turns into a melee in which case they get the red as does the opponent. they also get a red if its a push in the face. but this is clearly a problem- im basing my decision on the reaction of the other player...
 
You have to find your own 'definitions' for want of a better word, to distinguish between pushing/striking.

For me, it's the speed at which the pusher moves his hand. If it is placed on the opponent and then moved - it's a push. If it is moving faster before contacting the opponent it's a slap (if open-handed) or a punch (if with a closed fist).

Same with elbows, swinging it into the opponent or using it to shove him away.
 
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