The Ref Stop

VAR Vote

Does it really need to be trialled in U20 matches with kids who have never used VAR before though? It could be trialled in international friendlies, for example (or pre-season club matches).
It's common for youth tournaments to be used as trial environments. The officials will generally be ones that officiate in competitions that already have VAR etc. So it's not a random summer league with L5's refereeing it
 
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Does it really need to be trialled in U20 matches with kids who have never used VAR before though? It could be trialled in international friendlies, for example (or pre-season club matches).
Maybe they want to trial it in a match that actually has something riding on the outcome so that people use their challenges correctly - I don't know.
 
I'm probably in favour of a challenge system, but such a seismic change to VAR is an admission that its in a mess. It's interesting because the TA's are usually watching (iPads/Tablets/Monitors) the game on a 'near-live' basis, so it transfers the 'checking' responsibility of VAR to the managers/coaches
Which is exactly why I've said to give it a go. Gives them an element of control, but more importantly, accountability.
 
I'm skeptical challenges will work because it's still subjective and it puts even more pressure on the referee to overturn his decision.
 
Gives them an element of control, but more importantly, accountability.
I've argued for and against a challenge system. It has merit but it does still also have it's flaws.

I'm not wanting to get into days long debate but I have raised the point before that this isn't necessarily a good thing, from a referee perspective anyway.

It rarely happens but let's say Joe Blogs challenges a referees decision. Fine. Ref plods to the monitor. Disagrees with coach. Decision is final. Cue whole footballing world in meltdown once more... What about they agree, but the rest of the world doesn't. Same again. Referees at the centre of controversy once more for, as is some times the case, the correct call.

We've still got that same problem we're craving to fix as far as I can see. Ultimately I feel it's worth a trial, but I dont think we'll be able to measure it's true success until it is used in a live elite environment. And be good to test whether the benefits for outweigh the negatives.
 
Just on a similar thought - I remember in cricket for example, when we won the Headingley ashes test in 2019, Australia had wasted their reviews and Ben Stokes should have been out LBW. Everyone blamed Australia for wasting their reviews and not one person blamed the umpire for an incorrect decision on the LBW. Would the same happen in football?! Who knows, but I suspect not.
 
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I suspect not.
One hundred percent not. I'm an umpire as well, at the football equivalent of level 5, and the difference is massive. I have only ever had players shout at me/criticise me twice, one got 10 matches and the other 15. We would get blamed in football.
 
Still disagree. It's been controversial is all.

Agreed.
So, they should hold up their hands, admit that and then look to achieve a means by which it is more fit for purpose.
It'd be even more "arrogant" to insist that whilst rugby and cricket are using VAR cameras to try and get stuff right, football just simply doesn't need one!!
Ha!
Another poll last night and 70% fans want rid.

It has been a disaster. Maybe not quite as much of a disaster as missing a world cup due to a handball, but still a disaster. Too easy to forget the stadium experience when talking about made up %.
 
I mean, I obviously think it's a really good idea. There's no real detail in Dale's tweet so far, so there are still obviously lots of opportunities for them to make a mess of the system in the fine print, but I'm excited to see how this goes.
 
Just on a similar thought - I remember in cricket for example, when we won the Headingley ashes test in 2019, Australia had wasted their reviews and Ben Stokes should have been out LBW. Everyone blamed Australia for wasting their reviews and not one person blamed the umpire for an incorrect decision on the LBW. Would the same happen in football?! Who knows, but I suspect not.
Maybe? It's hard to tell, but I feel like as a ref, if the system existed to formally challenge and a player just chose to shout at me instead, I'd be far more willing to start throwing out dissent cautions.

That might change once reviews are wasted (although I would hope pundits at least would be smart enough to criticise managers for wasting reviews even if players aren't), but at the very least there should be no excuse or tolerance for any dissent while challenges are still available.
 
Cue whole footballing world in meltdown once more...
Aye, Ref makes a mistake with a review of a challenge... and it massively fuels the notion that managers know the game better than refs
Never thought of that. VAR already fuels hatred of Refs. Challenge System maybe gets a red card from me now. Just goes to show, as with everything, things that might appear like a good idea on the surface (VAR in general for instances)..... but once you drill down into all the potential consequences, it doesn't work out well. Where footy is concerned, there seems to be consequences involved with most change
 
That might change once reviews are wasted (although I would hope pundits at least would be smart enough to criticise managers for wasting reviews even if players aren't), but at the very least there should be no excuse or tolerance for any dissent while challenges are still available.
We at least wouldn't need a caution for excessively making the TV signal anymore!

Aye, Ref makes a mistake with a review of a challenge... and it massively fuels the notion that managers know the game better than refs
Never thought of that. VAR already fuels hatred of Refs. Challenge System maybe gets a red card from me now. Just goes to show, as with everything, things that might appear like a good idea on the surface (VAR in general for instances)..... but once you drill down into all the potential consequences, it doesn't work out well. Where footy is concerned, there seems to be consequences involved with most change
As I said not wanting to debate too much but a few months back there were another few page thread I was very active in at the time.where these points were debated. Time will tell but this is personally where I see a challenge system headed. What is obvious is most of football seems unhappy with the current iteration so it's worth a trial, I guess.
 
Aye, Ref makes a mistake with a review of a challenge... and it massively fuels the notion that managers know the game better than refs
Never thought of that. VAR already fuels hatred of Refs. Challenge System maybe gets a red card from me now. Just goes to show, as with everything, things that might appear like a good idea on the surface (VAR in general for instances)..... but once you drill down into all the potential consequences, it doesn't work out well. Where footy is concerned, there seems to be consequences involved with most change
That could happen. Or the referee gets a second look, changes his decision and is seen as being human.

Newcastle challenge the non-pen vs Utd; I think onfield ref says penalty once he sees it again.
 
That could happen. Or the referee gets a second look, changes his decision and is seen as being human.

Newcastle challenge the non-pen vs Utd; I think onfield ref says penalty once he sees it again.
Out of interest, would we propose that the manager gets to explain why he is challenging a decision? The ref from the Utd vs Newcastle game may watch it back and still not see the achilles contact unless it was pointed out to him.
 
Link to BBC Sport

The idea behind the system is to provide a cheaper alternative to the VAR system that can be used in less financially well-off competitions.

It is not intended to replace the system used in the elite competitions, but if Fifa was to take the idea forward, there would be nothing to stop major leagues requesting to implement it.
 
I've argued for and against a challenge system. It has merit but it does still also have it's flaws.

I'm not wanting to get into days long debate but I have raised the point before that this isn't necessarily a good thing, from a referee perspective anyway.

It rarely happens but let's say Joe Blogs challenges a referees decision. Fine. Ref plods to the monitor. Disagrees with coach. Decision is final. Cue whole footballing world in meltdown once more... What about they agree, but the rest of the world doesn't. Same again. Referees at the centre of controversy once more for, as is some times the case, the correct call.

We've still got that same problem we're craving to fix as far as I can see. Ultimately I feel it's worth a trial, but I dont think we'll be able to measure it's true success until it is used in a live elite environment. And be good to test whether the benefits for outweigh the negatives.
Agree with that, and I keep coming back to the same word: subjective. Let's say a manager challenges a decision, the referee goes to the screen and decides to stick with his original decision. Cue outcry in the media as they feel the original decision was wrong, and the usual suspects such as Hackett and Halsey will have a pile on saying the standard of refereeing isn't as good as it was in their days, if they can't get it right after watching a replay, blah, blah, blah.

It would probably mean more decisions are overturned as referees will get a chance to see an incident again, incidents that they don't necessarily get to see again now due to the high bar on VAR intervention. The obvious question is how quickly does the challenge have to be made? Restarts in football are often very fast, especially these days with short passes instead of it being clumped long, so referees would need to delay any restart where there is potentially going to be an appeal. How would they even know that? Or would the laws have to change to say that decisions can be changed after play has restarted.

I'm just not sure it fixes anything, it moves the responsibility for initiating a review from VAR to club officials, but the referee still has to make the decision.
 
Out of interest, would we propose that the manager gets to explain why he is challenging a decision? The ref from the Utd vs Newcastle game may watch it back and still not see the achilles contact unless it was pointed out to him.
I'd imagine they would have to do some form of explanation somewhere as to why they're challenging. But whether they would want them to go into so much detail, I don't know. Saying it's for a foul is fine. But if they started specifying on the achilles etc, I don't know if that would work. From what I remember, they don't really do that with current system as they don't want to cloud referees judgement.
 
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