RefSix

Utd vs PSG

Degnann

SFA Ref
Level 6 Referee
Thoughts on the Fred yellow?

ref looked at the screen for maybe 1 second then produced a yellow.

surprised hes stayed on the park imo
 

Tealeaf

Lighting the darkest hour
Staff member
Level 5 Referee
PSG player leans in, Fred responds likewise. As soon as he does PSG player hits the deck.

Was it a butt or the rutting stag? I suspect the referee has decided the latter and refused to be swayed by the exaggeration by the PSG player.

And before anyone jumps on this, @Degnann asked for thoughts on the incident. Not saying I saw it this way, but attempting to understand why he went yellow.
 

cpw1978_

New Member
UEFA are normally quite good at coming out and saying if a mistake has been made (Chelsea vs Ajax). I can see what @Tealeaf is saying there, but I viewed that as two players touching heads (like stags) and one then making a definite forward movement in a violent manner.

I'm on the Peter Walton side of review as violent conduct is regardless of whether contact is made or not, notwithstanding the allowance for negligible force for a hand or arm, which that wasn't as he used his head.
 

Tealeaf

Lighting the darkest hour
Staff member
Level 5 Referee
UEFA are normally quite good at coming out and saying if a mistake has been made (Chelsea vs Ajax). I can see what @Tealeaf is saying there, but I viewed that as two players touching heads (like stags) and one then making a definite forward movement in a violent manner.
This is my mental programming coming through. It’s like if someone says “How is that not a red?” my default is look for a plausible explanation as to why. If there isn’t one I won’t offer one.

Glad that you can see the point I’m making though. It’s reassuring.

I’m 50/50 on this incident because this has been instigated by the PSG player to provoke a reaction which always irritates me. If going with yellow here, then I’m doing both of them, not just Fred. If only punishing Fred then it’s red.
 

Degnann

SFA Ref
Level 6 Referee
not sure I agree with the second yellow but had that feeling all game he was going to talk at somepoint
 

BrumRef

Regular Contributor
Level 7 Referee
agreed Degnann I thought the tackle on Herrera was fair and not a second yellow but he was extremely lucky to be on the pitch for that long. @Tealeaf i see your point, I’m the exact same always thinking why something has/hasn’t been given playing devils advocate and it drives me mad when they get upset - like you asked how that was/wasn’t given!?🤣
 

APurpleChair

New Member
Level 7 Referee
Does the VAR protocol allow for a yellow card here?

The referee clearly didn’t see the incident in real time. After going over to check the monitor I thought the decision has to be a red card or nothing?
 

onthebrink

Well-Known Member
Does the VAR protocol allow for a yellow card here?

The referee clearly didn’t see the incident in real time. After going over to check the monitor I thought the decision has to be a red card or nothing?
Referee can show yellow after viiewing monitor, althouhg it's quite rare. It happened a few times in 2018 World Cup, including for Ronaldo against Iran. It also happened with Mazic in 2017 Confeds Cup final (I thought that one was a clear red.)
Referee clearly didn't see what Fred did so think review is fine under 'serious missed incident'. I was expecting red but UEFA have seemed quite lenient in recent years. Very quick decision though.
 

socal lurker

RefChat Addict
Does the VAR protocol allow for a yellow card here?

The referee clearly didn’t see the incident in real time. After going over to check the monitor I thought the decision has to be a red card or nothing?
The VAR can only recommend the R do an OFR on the basis there is evidence that it was clear error not to give the send off. But once the R reviews, he is not bound by that same limit. He can, as he did here, reject the VAR's opinion that it is clearly a send off and give a caution (or nothing).

I'd love to be a fly on the wall for the discussion with the assessor on that play . . . .
 

BrumRef

Regular Contributor
Level 7 Referee
And the tackle he made just before could’ve/should’ve been a yellow aswell so either way that should’ve been a red, 2 yellows 1 for tackle one for head bump or straight red for head bump or even yellow then straight red. Felt like he ducked out of making a big decision in a big game early on...
 

socal lurker

RefChat Addict
And the tackle he made just before could’ve/should’ve been a yellow aswell so either way that should’ve been a red, 2 yellows 1 for tackle one for head bump or straight red for head bump or even yellow then straight red. Felt like he ducked out of making a big decision in a big game early on...
I think the pendulum has been swinging for several years against send offs for SFP and VC (and even greater reluctance to send off in the first half). The seeming bias to finishing with 22 on the field seems to be growing. (I can't find a clip of the headbutt/bump that I can watch in the US--but it seems to me that a headbutt is about as close to an automatic send off as there would be--astounding to me (again, not having seen it) that the VAR recommends he review for the send off, but then he comes up with a caution instead.)
 

one

RefChat Addict
Level 7 Referee
Does the VAR protocol allow for a yellow card here?

The referee clearly didn’t see the incident in real time. After going over to check the monitor I thought the decision has to be a red card or nothing?
The VAR can only recommend the R do an OFR on the basis there is evidence that it was clear error not to give the send off. But once the R reviews, he is not bound by that same limit. He can, as he did here, reject the VAR's opinion that it is clearly a send off and give a caution (or nothing).
For VAR to recommend a review on a missed incident he does not have to believe it was a clear red or it was a clear error not to give a red. It just has to be a possible red card (must be a serious missed incident directly related to red card,...).

But as mentioned, after reviewing the referee can give a yellow or red, or even nothing.
 

socal lurker

RefChat Addict
For VAR to recommend a review on a missed incident he does not have to believe it was a clear red or it was a clear error not to give a red. It just has to be a possible red card (must be a serious missed incident directly related to red card,...).

But as mentioned, after reviewing the referee can give a yellow or red, or even nothing.
A possible red card would not be a serious missed incident. I suppose there is room to quibble about whether the VAR has to believe it is simply a missed red card or is clearly a missed red card, but he is not supposed to send it down if he just thinks it's a possible red card.
 

RefIADad

Well-Known Member
Level 7 Referee
I'm baffled, that was a clear red card no matter how much the PSG player milked it.

I realize it would be an incredibly difficult (if not impossible) sell, but this is a prime example of where I think a straight red for Fred (VC) and a caution for embellishment are both justified.

What Fred did is a send-off. Full stop. If we are going to be serious about head injuries and dealing with them, then any sort of deliberate action that's a head-butt needs to be a straight red. But you are absolutely right - the PSG player clearly embellished the severity of the contact. Sending Fred off and also cautioning the PSG player for embellishment would send two messages about what won't be tolerated on the field.

But as I said, good luck trying to sell those decisions together.
 

one

RefChat Addict
Level 7 Referee
I don't think it will be right to send Fred off and and the same time caution PSG player for embellishment. The send off says what Fred did was bad for a red. But if you only caution Fred then you can also caution PSG player for trying to deceive the ref into a red for Fred.

Having said that for me this is a clear red for Fred and a yellow for PSG player for instigating the incident.
 

Jtpetherick1

Well-Known Member
Level 4 Referee
I don't think it will be right to send Fred off and and the same time caution PSG player for embellishment. The send off says what Fred did was bad for a red. But if you only caution Fred then you can also caution PSG player for trying to deceive the ref into a red for Fred.

Having said that for me this is a clear red for Fred and a yellow for PSG player for instigating the incident.

Not at all. If I aim a punch at someone, miss and he goes down its VC and also simulation.
 

one

RefChat Addict
Level 7 Referee
Not at all. If I aim a punch at someone, miss and he goes down its VC and also simulation.
By general English meaning, yes. But by lotg definition, no.

If you want to caution someone for simulation, it has to be by lotg definition. The same way as if you want to penalise offside for gaining an advantage it has to be by lotg definition and not by the general English meaning.
 
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