Undershirt rules at Sunday League level?

[Orikoru]

Hi. I'm a club secretary and player for a Sunday League team (Harrow Sunday League under Middlesex). I am aware that there is a football law stating undershirts must be the same colour as the sleeves - but is this fully applied at grassroots level?

Previously our home shirts were pink and we mostly wore black undershirts and were never called up on it - but the main kit had long sleeves. We have purchased a new home shirt which has short sleeves. We will still be able to wear black undershirts or is it likely that we'll get called up on this?? It would be very annoying if all our players had to go out and buy yellow underlayers. (The sleeves are yellow.) If it makes any difference - we wear black shorts and socks.

I've only ever seen a player called for non-matching undershirt once, and that was a red one under our old pink shirts. Is there perhaps an unwritten (or written!) rule that black undershirts are ok at grassroots? I remember my old Saturday team had red shirts with short sleeves and I'm sure nobody got called out for wearing black undershirts then.

Thanks for your time.

 

[Big Cat]

Hi. I'm a club secretary and player for a Sunday League team (Harrow Sunday League under Middlesex). I am aware that there is a football law stating undershirts must be the same colour as the sleeves - but is this fully applied at grassroots level?

Previously our home shirts were pink and we mostly wore black undershirts and were never called up on it - but the main kit had long sleeves. We have purchased a new home shirt which has short sleeves. We will still be able to wear black undershirts or is it likely that we'll get called up on this?? It would be very annoying if all our players had to go out and buy yellow underlayers. (The sleeves are yellow.) If it makes any difference - we wear black shorts and socks.

I've only ever seen a player called for non-matching undershirt once, and that was a red one under our old pink shirts. Is there perhaps an unwritten (or written!) rule that black undershirts are ok at grassroots? I remember my old Saturday team had red shirts with short sleeves and I'm sure nobody got called out for wearing black undershirts then.

Thanks for your time.

It is the referee's duty to apply the LOTG and thus you should expect referees to ask for the undershirts to be removed or changed (wrong colour).
Many of us feel that the LOTG are not apt for grass roots football in this respect, so I for one have a good deal of understanding with you
In reality, I'd say most Sunday League referees will be fairly lax when it comes to asking players to change. So your experience will vary from week to week and it may infrequent that your players get pulled up. If a referee is on the promotion scheme, they may have no choice but to be overly officious. I'm one of those referees, but if it's a really cold day, I'd rather say to the observer that I've educated the players in question (advised them to buy the correct colour), but would stop short of demanding that they change. I'd rather miss out on promotion than make someone ill in the cold... common sense it's called. I would however be completely strict on Saturdays as those lads are on the fringe on the National League System

 

[Orikoru]

It is the referee's duty to apply the LOTG and thus you should expect referees to ask for the undershirts to be removed or changed (wrong colour).
Many of us feel that the LOTG are not apt for grass roots football in this respect, so I for one have a good deal of understanding with you
In reality, I'd say most Sunday League referees will be fairly lax when it comes to asking players to change. So your experience will vary from week to week and it may infrequent that your players get pulled up. If a referee is on the promotion scheme, they may have no choice but to be overly officious. I'm one of those referees, but if it's a really cold day, I'd rather say to the observer that I've educated the players in question (advised them to buy the correct colour), but would stop short of demanding that they change. I'd rather miss out on promotion than make someone ill in the cold... common sense it's called. I would however be completely strict on Saturdays as those lads are on the fringe on the National League System

Thanks - I guess that's close to what I expected. We just didn't think of it when we were buying the kits tbh. I hope that at our level the refs display the same morals as you i.e. not making our players freeze to death for the sake of a black sleeve!

Thinking about it, loads of clubs have different colour kits, orange, green, you name it, and I'm sure they haven't all had to buy different coloured undershirts.

 

[Big Cat]

Thanks - I guess that's close to what I expected. We just didn't think of it when we were buying the kits tbh. I hope that at our level the refs display the same morals as you i.e. not making our players freeze to death for the sake of a black sleeve!

Thinking about it, loads of clubs have different colour kits, orange, green, you name it, and I'm sure they haven't all had to buy different coloured undershirts.

It is what it is really. FIFA boast about football at all levels adhering to the same LOTG, but that rhetoric is dated because the professional game has VAR. Participation should be the focus at grass roots, not appearance for the cameras! A clash of colours always needs to be avoided however and players should think about buying the right coloured undershirt, especially warm-weather clobber that they might plan on wearing every week

 

[Orikoru]

It is what it is really. FIFA boast about football at all levels adhering to the same LOTG, but that rhetoric is dated because the professional game has VAR. Participation should be the focus at grass roots, not appearance for the cameras! A clash of colours always needs to be avoided however and players should think about buying the right coloured undershirt, especially warm-weather clobber that they might plan on wearing every week

I'd say the majority if not all of our players that wear undershirts will have black ones. This can't clash with the opposition at least, because of course we're instructed that teams shouldn't have black shirts because the ref will be wearing black. I can totally understand if someone was wearing a red undershirt and we were playing against a red team, I would expect the ref to say they couldn't wear it then. We're just going to hope that black is ok I think.

If we did get called on it, it might just be that we have to switch the whole team back into our old pink kit with the long sleeves for that game! We will be telling players to bring both kits just in case required.

 

[JamesL]

Hi. I'm a club secretary and player for a Sunday League team (Harrow Sunday League under Middlesex). I am aware that there is a football law stating undershirts must be the same colour as the sleeves - but is this fully applied at grassroots level?

Previously our home shirts were pink and we mostly wore black undershirts and were never called up on it - but the main kit had long sleeves. We have purchased a new home shirt which has short sleeves. We will still be able to wear black undershirts or is it likely that we'll get called up on this?? It would be very annoying if all our players had to go out and buy yellow underlayers. (The sleeves are yellow.) If it makes any difference - we wear black shorts and socks.

I've only ever seen a player called for non-matching undershirt once, and that was a red one under our old pink shirts. Is there perhaps an unwritten (or written!) rule that black undershirts are ok at grassroots? I remember my old Saturday team had red shirts with short sleeves and I'm sure nobody got called out for wearing black undershirts then.

Thanks for your time.

As @Big Cat alludes to referees should be doing a pre match inspection and should be asking players to remove them, as per laws of the game which are the same for grassroots and the same for PL.
I too sympathise with recreational football, and again it does depend on the referee. You may get a referee who is happy to carry on as they aren't interested in moving up the ladder or a referee who is on promotion scheme, who rightly isn't going to risk his promotion when some observers are really hot.
Same applies to sock tape and undershorts as well.

 

[Big Cat]

As @Big Cat alludes to referees should be doing a pre match inspection and should be asking players to remove them, as per laws of the game which are the same for grassroots and the same for PL.
I too empathise with recreational football, and again it does depend on the referee. You may get a referee who is happy to carry on as they aren't interested in moving up the ladder or a referee who is on promotion scheme, who rightly isn't going to risk his promotion when some observers are really hot.
Same applies to sock tape and undershorts as well.

Sock tape is easier to manage. I carry a selection of colours for those grass-roots games on which I'll be observed. I just give the tape away to those who might catch the observers eye. For the sake of a quid or so, problem solved

 

[JamesL]

I'd say the majority if not all of our players that wear undershirts will have black ones. This can't clash with the opposition at least, because of course we're instructed that teams shouldn't have black shirts because the ref will be wearing black. I can totally understand if someone was wearing a red undershirt and we were playing against a red team, I would expect the ref to say they couldn't wear it then. We're just going to hope that black is ok I think.

If we did get called on it, it might just be that we have to switch the whole team back into our old pink kit with the long sleeves for that game! We will be telling players to bring both kits just in case required.

But what if you're opponents are also wearing black undershirts. Or yellow body with long black sleeves.
I assume switching back to pink fixes the issue as they are long sleeved? Yes?
It is good to have a backup and nice to hear that clubs are interested in what they should be doing.. Thanks for asking and glad we were able to help

 

[JamesL]

Sock tape is easier to manage. I carry a selection of colours for those grass-roots games on which I'll be observed. I just give the tape away to those who might catch the observers eye

But not all refs will do that BC, I certainly don't, and don't plan to, so it's still worth the point.

 

[Orikoru]

As @Big Cat alludes to referees should be doing a pre match inspection and should be asking players to remove them, as per laws of the game which are the same for grassroots and the same for PL.
I too empathise with recreational football, and again it does depend on the referee. You may get a referee who is happy to carry on as they aren't interested in moving up the ladder or a referee who is on promotion scheme, who rightly isn't going to risk his promotion when some observers are really hot.
Same applies to sock tape and undershorts as well.

I'm not a ref so you may feel I'm wide of the mark here. But as Big Cat touched upon - if it's 1°c and eight or nine of our players have black undershirts on, it may not be realistic to expect us to play in just shirtsleeves, at which point the game has to be abandoned then? Would the 'observer' really want you to see a game abandoned, rather than taking the common sense approach Big Cat described and giving the team a talking to about it but allowing it to go ahead? If that's the case then I really think something is wrong.

Edit: I'm talking hypothetically of course, if we didn't have the pink long-sleeved back up shirts that I mentioned.

 

[Justylove]

The LOTG asks referees to "apply the laws within the 'spirit' of the game" for me this would count as one of those.

If I was on a promotion scheme and being observed, I'd mention it to the observer, so they know I'd seen it, but clarify the spirit of the game element.

The only time I'd have an issue would be if the undershirts then start to cause a potential kit clash with the opposition, then it would be a different story.

 

[Orikoru]

But what if you're opponents are also wearing black undershirts. Or yellow body with long black sleeves.
I assume switching back to pink fixes the issue as they are long sleeved? Yes?
It is good to have a backup and nice to hear that clubs are interested in what they should be doing.. Thanks for asking and glad we were able to help

Yeah, if we did get called on it we'd have to switch to the long-sleeved pink kit I think, provided it doesn't clash with the oppo. I just think a few of our players might be peeved going forward if they then had to buy a yellow undershirt, haha.

It's always better to be prepared, I couldn't find any published viewpoint on it so I thought I'd ask here.

 

[RefJef]

If I were to referee one of your Sunday morning games ( I won’t, as I’m down here in Somerset) it wouldn’t bother me. Sunday football is about participation, and if wearing a black undershirt means someone will turn up and play, then that’s fine with me.

I might tell the players/coach that another ref may want them to remove them, and if they play at a higher level then they can expect the ref to insist they remove them, but for my Sunday games, it’s not a problem for me.

As a slight aside, I ref-ed a game on Tuesday evening (friendly) between two sides from “my” Saturday league. Being pre-season, one team had plenty of players (some trialists) and not enough shirts. Before the game the coach highlighted to me that one of their players was in a non-team top (but was still blue), and asked if I was happy with this. I was, in these Covid days a better solution than players swapping shirts when subbed on and off.

At the lower reaches of grass roots football, common sense should prevail.

 

[JamesL]

I'm not a ref so you may feel I'm wide of the mark here. But as Big Cat touched upon - if it's 1°c and eight or nine of our players have black undershirts on, it may not be realistic to expect us to play in just shirtsleeves, at which point the game has to be abandoned then? Would the 'observer' really want you to see a game abandoned, rather than taking the common sense approach Big Cat described and giving the team a talking to about it but allowing it to go ahead? If that's the case then I really think something is wrong.

Edit: I'm talking hypothetically of course, if we didn't have the pink long-sleeved back up shirts that I mentioned.

Of course. I gathered that you weren't a ref
I'd be talking to my observer about it. We have some old schoolers who do things to the letter, and expect us to as well. If he was going to sting me for it, I don't think I would have much choice.. This would come under application of law, arguably the most important competency and the highest weighting.. Fail here and you need to have been exceptional everywhere else.
I like Justys point that you could argue spirit of the law and turn a blind eye, perhaps, but that doesn't solve a clash.
Under shirts are not compulsory equipment so it wouldn't be an abandonment of the game, rather non fulfilment of fixture if you chose not to play without them.
Not sure what are group your team is, but I'd argue further leniency here for youth football, which will never be observed on so have much greater wiggle room to accommodate comfort of the children.

Edit: technical issues with my browser, ignore the first part (now deleted) , the laughing emojis were not intentional, emojis sometimes fix my issue with the site on this browser

 

[OIREF!]

At grass roots common sense generally prevails but in response to the OP and various comments - if a referee were to make an issue of this then that referee would be correct in terms of LOTG. It's probable that a referee who does consider it an issue is unlikely to be swayed by any argument that you've been wearing the same arrangement all season. Best to have a contingency plan for such a scenario.

 

[Orikoru]

If I were to referee one of your Sunday morning games ( I won’t, as I’m down here in Somerset) it wouldn’t bother me. Sunday football is about participation, and if wearing a black undershirt means someone will turn up and play, then that’s fine with me.

I might tell the players/coach that another ref may want them to remove them, and if they play at a higher level then they can expect the ref to insist they remove them, but for my Sunday games, it’s not a problem for me.

As a slight aside, I ref-ed a game on Tuesday evening (friendly) between two sides from “my” Saturday league. Being pre-season, one team had plenty of players (some trialists) and not enough shirts. Before the game the coach highlighted to me that one of their players was in a non-team top (but was still blue), and asked if I was happy with this. I was, in these Covid days a better solution than players swapping shirts when subbed on and off.

At the lower reaches of grass roots football, common sense should prevail.

Great post, I fully agree.

Of course. I gathered that you weren't a ref
I'd be talking to my observer about it. We have some old schoolers who do things to the letter, and expect us to as well. If he was going to sting me for it, I don't think I would have much choice.. This would come under application of law, arguably the most important competency and the highest weighting.. Fail here and you need to have been exceptional everywhere else.
I like Justys point that you could argue spirit of the law and turn a blind eye, perhaps, but that doesn't solve a clash.
Under shirts are not compulsory equipment so it wouldn't be an abandonment of the game, rather non fulfilment of fixture if you chose not to play without them.
Not sure what are group your team is, but I'd argue further leniency here for youth football, which will never be observed on so have much greater wiggle room to accommodate comfort of the children.

Edit: technical issues with my browser, ignore the first part (now deleted) , the laughing emojis were not intentional, emojis sometimes fix my issue with the site on this browser

'Abandoned' was the wrong terminology by me, I just meant that potentially we wouldn't be able to play the game. And we're in the adult Sunday Leagues, not youth.

 

[JamesL]

I'm not a ref so you may feel I'm wide of the mark here. But as Big Cat touched upon - if it's 1°c and eight or nine of our players have black undershirts on, it may not be realistic to expect us to play in just shirtsleeves, at which point the game has to be abandoned then? Would the 'observer' really want you to see a game abandoned, rather than taking the common sense approach Big Cat described and giving the team a talking to about it but allowing it to go ahead? If that's the case then I really think something is wrong.

Edit: I'm talking hypothetically of course, if we didn't have the pink long-sleeved back up shirts that I mentioned.

Another point if I may - I happen to agree the laws are not conducive to participation, and where possible I would urge leniency.
But in your situation, its the middle of the season, 4th time said observer had visited and you say I have spoken to the team about their under garments. However, this is the 4th time the observer has heard his, which referee has to be the one who finally says, you've been told x y and z times about this, they need to come off.
It's tough, I don't like it as it. Comes off as overly officious, an sours the relationship pre kick off, but you are going to be faced with it on occasion.
In a perfect world the simplest solution would be to have players purchase yellow undershirts. But I am acutely aware for some that is a big ask, perhaps can't afford or don't want to commit or don't play regular enough.

 

[Orikoru]

Another point if I may - I happen to agree the laws are not conducive to participation, and where possible I would urge leniency.
But in your situation, its the middle of the season, 4th time said observer had visited and you say I have spoken to the team about their under garments. However, this is the 4th time the observer has heard his, which referee has to be the one who finally says, you've been told x y and z times about this, they need to come off.
It's tough, I don't like it as it. Comes off as overly officious, an sours the relationship pre kick off, but you are going to be faced with it on occasion.
In a perfect world the simplest solution would be to have players purchase yellow undershirts. But I am acutely aware for some that is a big ask, perhaps can't afford or don't want to commit or don't play regular enough.

That's fair enough. I imagine we will be winging it with the black undershirts until the first time a ref actually mentions it. Then personally I'll probably buy a yellow undershirt and encourage others to do likewise just in case we get told again. I've seen one on Decathlon at £13 which will work I think, not too much expense so I'd send a link round to that most likely. Then it's up to the players themselves. Of course I don't forsee this being an issue until at least November time when it gets colder, so we'll see how it goes.

 

[GraemeS]

As others have said, there might be some flexibility based on conditions, promotion etc. But that goes straight out the window as soon as there is a clash - as soon as that happens, the referee has little choice but to strictly enforce the LOTG.

 

[santa sangria]

In reality various leagues around the world do not follow this particular law for grassroots football. In the LotG there is a list of items (length of half, return subs, sinbins etc.) that can be altered if a national association deems the level "grassroots".

IMHO it's daft that "colour of under garments and tape" is not there.

Where I am (small Nordic nation) only the top 4 tiers have mandatory under garment colours. I don't think there is going to be international incident or headlines about this anytime soon