The Ref Stop

U18 county game

dylanbailey4444

dylanbailey4444

Well-Known Member
Level 5 Referee
I had a game yesterday. U18 county level.

Home team won 7-0 (5-0 half time). It went like this.

Home goal- 12 mins
Home goal- 13 mins
Home goal- 26 mins
Away player 8- YC- 26 mins (gave away pen)
Home goal - 27 mins
Away player 8- 2 YC- 39 mins - His 2nd YC- off
Home goal- 41 mins
Away 17- YC - 42 mins
45 mins. Half time.
Half time- Away Manager- yellow card for dissent.

The manager asked to speak with me at half time about the sending off and multiple other decisions. I said that’s fine- I’m happy to talk.
He asked about the first yellow card. He thought the penalty that his player gave away (which I thought was a genuine attempt to play the ball so not a red) was a good tackle. I started to talk to explain why I thought it was a foul and he told me to listen to him and stop talking and then started going on about other decisions. He then accused me of knowing the home team players by name. Bear in mind that this is u18 county level and I am 17 years old. I asked why he thought I knew the home team players and he refused to tell me- at this point, I yellow carded him. He walked off. I waited for him to walk a bit then made my way to my changing room. I was then greeted by a spectator who said ‘ref, *I turn to look at him* you’re a tw*t’ I said to him that that isn’t the nicest thing to call a 17 year old and he shrugged and said that he didn’t care.

The second half was far less controversial.

The away manager had a chat with me after the game. He said in the first half I was poor, but the second half I was quite good. He asked if he could give me some advice. I accepted. He said that I shouldn’t rush into making decisions and I should take more time (talking about the first half where I sent off his player. He thought I should have taken my time on both occasions). I said that that is a fair comment and I appreciate his feedback. He then spoke about the yellow card I gave him which he felt was unfair as he had asked to come and speak to me and then he choose to walk away. He said that if I had asked him to speak to me and he tried walking away, then it would be a fair yellow. I told him that he committed an act of dissent- it wasn’t particularly for him walking away. I reminded him that he wouldn’t let me speak and told me to be quiet, that he was committing an act of dissent by telling me that my decisions were wrong, and that he accused me of knowing each home player by name. I felt the yellow card was justified. Even after the game when I asked him to tell me when he heard me call a player by their name, he said that we will just keep going round in circles. He then walked off.

Certainly an interesting game to have. This I feel is a game where an experienced referee could manage it slightly and have some tricks up his sleeve to help him out in difficult situations.
 
The Ref Stop
OnlyUseMeWhistle said:
Same here. I cannot stand that older male managers talk to me like this all the time when talking about decisions.
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es1 said:
at this point i'd have ended the conversation and walked away tbh and wouldn't have entertained any thought of feedback or advice from him either
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That’s fair enough. On reflection- I agree. I think in the heat of the moment, I felt like he could explode and I didn’t want to walk away incase if anything he would do. He was angry enough as it was and I didn’t want to escalate it further. But then it could have been the right thing to do on reflection! Thanks both
 
Absolutely what es1 said. Once its clear they only want to moan or lecture, I speak over them to tell them I have no interest in being lectured at, thank them, and walk away, even if they continue speaking. I ignore everything from there.

I also have absolutely zero interest in any feedback from any player, club official or spectator.
 
Macca said:
Absolutely what es1 said. Once its clear they only want to moan or lecture, I speak over them to tell them I have no interest in being lectured at, thank them, and walk away, even if they continue speaking. I ignore everything from there.

I also have absolutely zero interest in any feedback from any player, club official or spectator.
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Thank you. I think I felt at the time that it was easier just to let him speak. He was quite an explosive person. I had players and coaches from the home team tell me that he’s an explosive person and has an opinion on everything (which I could tell before they told me that). I felt it was just easier to let him talk at the time.
 
As soon as it's not a conversation, it's not a conversation, and I think where we accept dialogue at half or full time it's always worth setting some ground rules.
"Happy to chat/have a conversation so long as it remains respectful and you listen to my point of view".

As soon as he isn't listening to your point of view, we've got something to fall back to.

If you do get into conversation then it's always worth acknowledging their point of view as well. For example, re: the red card, we acknowledge their point of view, (e.g. by saying something like I understand you thought it wasn't a foul) and then give our opinion (but from where I was there was a clear shirt pull which caused the player to fall to the ground) and explanation of law (as it wasn't an attempt for the ball and it denied OGSO it's a red card) as the reason we arrived at the decision we did. If it carries on, then we have to agree to disagree and be firm that we aren't going to talk about it much further.

One last bit of advice. Where there are changing rooms, dont have this conversation as publicly.
Send the manager on his way, tell him to take 5-10 mins with his team and if he still wants a chat to come and see you. (Hold conversation OUTSIDE changing room as you are U18 and if on own as well so that any misconduct can be observed and backed up if needed, and safeguarding protocols are seen to be observed).

Having the chat on the field and him walking off with a booking looks wrong... You've cautioned for dissent but a team official that enters FOP Inc. at half or full time to show dissent is a red card offence. So by moving it away gives you more control over what things look like and ultimately the sanction and more often than not they dont bother coming after having some cool down time.
 
JamesL said:
As soon as it's not a conversation, it's not a conversation, and I think where we accept dialogue at half or full time it's always worth setting some ground rules.
"Happy to chat/have a conversation so long as it remains respectful and you listen to my point of view".

As soon as he isn't listening to your point of view, we've got something to fall back to.

If you do get into conversation then it's always worth acknowledging their point of view as well. For example, re: the red card, we acknowledge their point of view, (e.g. by saying something like I understand you thought it wasn't a foul) and then give our opinion (but from where I was there was a clear shirt pull which caused the player to fall to the ground) and explanation of law (as it wasn't an attempt for the ball and it denied OGSO it's a red card) as the reason we arrived at the decision we did. If it carries on, then we have to agree to disagree and be firm that we aren't going to talk about it much further.

One last bit of advice. Where there are changing rooms, dont have this conversation as publicly.
Send the manager on his way, tell him to take 5-10 mins with his team and if he still wants a chat to come and see you. (Hold conversation OUTSIDE changing room as you are U18 and if on own as well so that any misconduct can be observed and backed up if needed, and safeguarding protocols are seen to be observed).

Having the chat on the field and him walking off with a booking looks wrong... You've cautioned for dissent but a team official that enters FOP Inc. at half or full time to show dissent is a red card offence. So by moving it away gives you more control over what things look like and ultimately the sanction and more often than not they dont bother coming after having some cool down time.
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Thanks James. I did accept his point of view but he refused to listen to mine. The chat was held outside the changing room as I know that is quite important in these situations. I think in the heat of the moment, I felt like red carding him would just inflame the situation considering how emotional he was at the time. But I accept it would have been the right thing to do. Out of curiosity, how come him walking off with a booking would look wrong? Just wondering. Thanks 👍😃
 
dylanbailey4444 said:
Thanks James. I did accept his point of view but he refused to listen to mine. The chat was held outside the changing room as I know that is quite important in these situations. I think in the heat of the moment, I felt like red carding him would just inflame the situation considering how emotional he was at the time. But I accept it would have been the right thing to do. Out of curiosity, how come him walking off with a booking would look wrong? Just wondering. Thanks 👍😃
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The way in which you describe it makes it sound like it was on the pitch. He had time to walk off a bit and then you made your way to changing room.
So as I read he committed this offence:
•" entering the field of play to:
• confront a match official (including at half-time and full-time)"
Which is a red card offence... Might just be how I read it.
 
JamesL said:
The way in which you describe it makes it sound like it was on the pitch. He had time to walk off a bit and then you made your way to changing room.
So as I read he committed this offence:
•" entering the field of play to:
• confront a match official (including at half-time and full-time)"
Which is a red card offence... Might just be how I read it.
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That’s true. You’re right. Do you think it’s worth adding that in a report to my CFA?
 
I think once you caution him for dissent at half time, there's no good reason to even think about engaging with him for feedback or advice at full time. When he carries out an action that you feel needs a YC, that's the end of a friendly relationship between you - after that, engage if further discipline is required, for a "for the cameras" handshake at the end, or if he comes up and apologies. Anything else should be politely shut down immediately.

Advice at that point is never going to be for your benefit - it's about him either trying to make you feel like you made a mistake, or to vent his own frustrations. And there's no good reason to engage in either of those processes. So when he approaches you at the end of the game and offers advice, I'd just go with "no thank you - good luck with the rest of your season" and move away/move on to the next person.
 
GraemeS said:
I think once you caution him for dissent at half time, there's no good reason to even think about engaging with him for feedback or advice at full time. When he carries out an action that you feel needs a YC, that's the end of a friendly relationship between you - after that, engage if further discipline is required, for a "for the cameras" handshake at the end, or if he comes up and apologies. Anything else should be politely shut down immediately.

Advice at that point is never going to be for your benefit - it's about him either trying to make you feel like you made a mistake, or to vent his own frustrations. And there's no good reason to engage in either of those processes. So when he approaches you at the end of the game and offers advice, I'd just go with "no thank you - good luck with the rest of your season" and move away/move on to the next person.
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That’s fair. Thank you. Good advice. I appreciate it. He was a manager who seemed to have an opinion about everything and wanted to get involved in a lot of things so that’s good advice for not getting involved with him.
 
There's talking with you and talking at you. They are very different, and once the line is crossed between them politely end the conversation and then walk away.

You also need to think about how it might look, if the opposition see you having a lengthy chat with the manager and then the first big decision in the 2nd half goes against them they will think he has influenced you. That's why at senior levels it is very rare for match officials to talk to managers and coaches at half time, just needs someone from the other team seeing someone coming out of the referee's changing room and they'll put 2 and 2 together and come up with 9.
 
It will come with experience and age Dylan. In this instance, I think any decision against his team he would complain about and put it upon himself to tell you what you’ve done wrong.

Any conversation with him at half time is pointless.

Sometimes it’s better to politely decline and suggest a chat after full time would be better when emotions are sometimes less heightened.

If you want to take the authoritive high ground, at half time as he approaches you can simply point out as others have said, if he is confronting you, you will have to show him a red card so please walk away.

Easier said than done but you have the laws of the game there to back you up.

Sounds like a challenging and intimidating experience, well done for getting through the second half and well done for at least showing him a yellow, many your age wouldn’t
 
RustyRef said:
There's talking with you and talking at you. They are very different, and once the line is crossed between them politely end the conversation and then walk away.

You also need to think about how it might look, if the opposition see you having a lengthy chat with the manager and then the first big decision in the 2nd half goes against them they will think he has influenced you. That's why at senior levels it is very rare for match officials to talk to managers and coaches at half time, just needs someone from the other team seeing someone coming out of the referee's changing room and they'll put 2 and 2 together and come up with 9.
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That’s a good way of putting it, thank you. A new perspective for me! Thanks a lot. Never thought of it that way. Thanks rusty!
 
Gamespoiler said:
It will come with experience and age Dylan. In this instance, I think any decision against his team he would complain about and put it upon himself to tell you what you’ve done wrong.

Any conversation with him at half time is pointless.

Sometimes it’s better to politely decline and suggest a chat after full time would be better when emotions are sometimes less heightened.

If you want to take the authoritive high ground, at half time as he approaches you can simply point out as others have said, if he is confronting you, you will have to show him a red card so please walk away.

Easier said than done but you have the laws of the game there to back you up.

Sounds like a challenging and intimidating experience, well done for getting through the second half and well done for at least showing him a yellow, many your age wouldn’t
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Thank you. Much appreciated. Looking back, I probably should have been a bit more authoritative with him.
 
dylanbailey4444 said:
Thank you. Much appreciated. Looking back, I probably should have been a bit more authoritative with him.
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Maybe, but you are approaching this from the right perspective I think. You are trying to engage with people on a level and that is commendable. You just have to be very clear where the boundaries lie - very few players/managers are going to try and help you, they are always much more likely to be emotive about the game and wanting to vent frustration or influence you, especially at half time.

As has been suggested here, a good tactic is to say you're open to a conversation (ie. two way) after the game, but if you feel that becomes disrespectful or dissent, you will put a stop to it for both of your sakes. Then you just have to follow through with that.

You're clearly someone who wants to reflect and improve and that will stand you in good stead, without a doubt. Other people's motives aren't quite so pure!
 
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