A&H

Treating players of a different abilty the same

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Worthingwhistle

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Interested in other refs take on a situation I had in a game recently, White team playing two up front , number 10 is quite clearly playing at a much lower standard than his ability hes as quick as lighting very good on the ball and just head and shoulders above everybody on the pitch where as his strike partner is only there to make up the numbers, not sure if he ran at all in the game and just a terrible footballer, 20 mins in to the game the 10 gets the ball 25 yards out spins away from the defender (also the last man) who makes no attempt to play the ball and just clears him out Obvious DOGSO not many complaints from anyone, 2nd half more or less the same scenario but with the lot slower and less able player being pulled back by the defender with hand fulls of shirt ,but I only give a yellow as there was no way he was ever going to get on the ball and shoot ,predictably White team are screaming for another red , I'm just not sure I made the right call based on a players ability rather than treating all incidents (especially DOGSO) the same .
 
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Worthingwhistle said:
Interested in other refs take on a situation I had in a game recently, White team playing two up front , number 10 is quite clearly playing at a much lower standard than his ability hes as quick as lighting very good on the ball and just head and shoulders above everybody on the pitch where as his strike partner is only there to make up the numbers, not sure if he ran at all in the game and just a terrible footballer, 20 mins in to the game the 10 gets the ball 25 yards out spins away from the defender (also the last man) who makes no attempt to play the ball and just clears him out Obvious DOGSO not many complaints from anyone, 2nd half more or less the same scenario but with the lot slower and less able player being pulled back by the defender with hand fulls of shirt ,but I only give a yellow as there was no way he was ever going to get on the ball and shoot ,predictably White team are screaming for another red , I'm just not sure I made the right call based on a players ability rather than treating all incidents (especially DOGSO) the same .
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To answer your question, if a Premier League attacking player is in that position a red would be expected, but a 13-year-old boy or girl player in that position would corrrctly generate a caution.
Was the second example an obvious goal scoring opportunity? No, from your description.
 
Worthingwhistle said:
Interested in other refs take on a situation I had in a game recently, White team playing two up front , number 10 is quite clearly playing at a much lower standard than his ability hes as quick as lighting very good on the ball and just head and shoulders above everybody on the pitch where as his strike partner is only there to make up the numbers, not sure if he ran at all in the game and just a terrible footballer, 20 mins in to the game the 10 gets the ball 25 yards out spins away from the defender (also the last man) who makes no attempt to play the ball and just clears him out Obvious DOGSO not many complaints from anyone, 2nd half more or less the same scenario but with the lot slower and less able player being pulled back by the defender with hand fulls of shirt ,but I only give a yellow as there was no way he was ever going to get on the ball and shoot ,predictably White team are screaming for another red , I'm just not sure I made the right call based on a players ability rather than treating all incidents (especially DOGSO) the same .
Click to expand...
When considering DOGSO, the law provides a framework.

The following must be considered:
• distance between the offence and the goal
• general direction of the play
• likelihood of keeping or gaining control of the ball
• location and number of defenders

The use of the ‘likelihood’ helps the referee assess situations differently between the two types of incidents you described. One player has ability and speed to keep/gain control whereas the other does not. In other words, it is less likely to happen.
 
Worthingwhistle said:
Interested in other refs take on a situation I had in a game recently, White team playing two up front , number 10 is quite clearly playing at a much lower standard than his ability hes as quick as lighting very good on the ball and just head and shoulders above everybody on the pitch where as his strike partner is only there to make up the numbers, not sure if he ran at all in the game and just a terrible footballer, 20 mins in to the game the 10 gets the ball 25 yards out spins away from the defender (also the last man) who makes no attempt to play the ball and just clears him out Obvious DOGSO not many complaints from anyone, 2nd half more or less the same scenario but with the lot slower and less able player being pulled back by the defender with hand fulls of shirt ,but I only give a yellow as there was no way he was ever going to get on the ball and shoot ,predictably White team are screaming for another red , I'm just not sure I made the right call based on a players ability rather than treating all incidents (especially DOGSO) the same .
Click to expand...
As you describe it both are DOGSO and red cards. I don't think referees should be making decisions on our perception of whether one player is better than another. Would you consider the ability of the goalkeeper when making a DOGSO decision?
 
OIREF! said:
I don't think referees should be making decisions on our perception of whether one player is better than another. Would you consider the ability of the goalkeeper when making a DOGSO decision?
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This. ^ ^ ^

Just referee what is in front of you minute by minute, game by game. :)
 
OIREF! said:
As you describe it both are DOGSO and red cards. I don't think referees should be making decisions on our perception of whether one player is better than another. Would you consider the ability of the goalkeeper when making a DOGSO decision?
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As Yampy has pointed out, likelihood of gaining control of the ball is one of the considerations for DOGSO - if you don't believe the player is going to get to the ball, there is no OGSO denied. So while you may not be making the decision based on the player's technical ability, you have to judge whether the attacker is going to gain control of the ball or not, and their speed is a very important factor in making that decision.

So no, as the OP has described it, the second incident is not DOGSO.
 
Some players are horses, some are goats. Sounds like this one was not a horse
.'. no DOGSO

In some cases, technical ability is relevant. I would say only in blatant cases - I wouldn't be splitting hairs over it - but if the player in the ball is demonstrably useless it will severely impact whether or not an OGSO exists.

If course, if distance from goal is six yards, you're probably just giving it regardless.
 
Yampy said:
When considering DOGSO, the law provides a framework.

The following must be considered:
• distance between the offence and the goal
• general direction of the play
• likelihood of keeping or gaining control of the ball
• location and number of defenders

The use of the ‘likelihood’ helps the referee assess situations differently between the two types of incidents you described. One player has ability and speed to keep/gain control whereas the other does not. In other words, it is less likely to happen.
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This question interests me.

If you have two strikers for the same team and after half an hour you can see:

one is quick with good ball control

and the other is slow, and has poor ball control

Would you make a decision on DOGSO based on those factors for both players?

Or is DOGSO about the denial of the chance for one of those two players to show us what they can or cannot do?

I've always wondered.
 
Kent Ref said:
This question interests me.

If you have two strikers for the same team and after half an hour you can see:

one is quick with good ball control

and the other is slow, and has poor ball control

Would you make a decision on DOGSO based on those factors for both players?

Or is DOGSO about the denial of the chance for one of those two players to show us what they can or cannot do?

I've always wondered.
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The 4 factors in DOGSO are

Distance
Defenders
Direction
Control

In order to satisfy a DOGSO, all 4 of those criteria must be met.

The control element is 'the likelihood of keeping or gaining control of the ball'

So in exactly the same scenario with two different players being fouled that criteria might be vastly different.

It's not an exact science by any means, as an example I had a potential DOGSO at the weekend, the only thing that saved the defender was the fact that the attacker had taken a very heavy touch on the ball prior to being fouled and based on the distance from goal I could not be certain that he would have gained control of the ball due to the position of the goalkeeper. Had he been 5 yards further away from the penalty area with the same touch, the defender would have been walking.
 
Kent Ref said:
This question interests me.

If you have two strikers for the same team and after half an hour you can see:

one is quick with good ball control

and the other is slow, and has poor ball control

Would you make a decision on DOGSO based on those factors for both players?

Or is DOGSO about the denial of the chance for one of those two players to show us what they can or cannot do?

I've always wondered.
Click to expand...

No, the decision is not based on comparing the two front players. The decision is based on

"likelihood of keeping or gaining control of the ball"

this is an opinion decision. You make opinion decisions based on player ability, intent etc frequently. This is another one. In the OP he had seen enough of each of those players to be able to make an informed decision.
 
Kent Ref said:
If you have two strikers for the same team and after half an hour you can see:

one is quick with good ball control

and the other is slow, and has poor ball control

Would you make a decision on DOGSO based on those factors for both players?
Click to expand...
What if you had to make that decision in the first minute? Or the last minute where the quick one had run out of steam?
 
I think this is one of those things that can get really easy to over-think, especially from the comfort of a chair and a keyboard. In the heat of the moment, the question is straightforward--do I think the player was likely to keep or gain control of the ball. It's going to be an instinctual view, more than a logically analytic one.
 
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