Throw in from wrong location sanction and restart

[GraemeS]

ideal for the side on throw

and for the throw where the guys going to take a ten yard run up before hitting the spot to release?

suppose if it works for you, as ever, great.

imo, horrendous advice. Perfectly managable with a shout ' thats you fine there', a whistle if you see fit.
absolutely no need for us to be in line with the throw and as ever regional variations apply but unless someone learns their course in a tardis here, its antiquated

I answered all those questions? "Side-on" throw isn't going to go very far at all, with a run-up you're specifically telling him where to target the end of his run-up - and as I clearly laid out in the post I replied to, there's nothing stopping you setting off a split-second early, knowing that he should already be targeting a point. I should also point out that we're supposed to be judging if the mechanism of the throw is legal, which is marginally easier to do from level with the player in question than ahead of them, particularly if there's a concern of their back foot lifting.

I can easily point out flaws in your approach too FYI. If a player is running forwards to take a throw, how exactly do you fit the sentence " thats you fine there" in the time between where he passes the point you want him to throw and the moment of release 5 yards further down the line? Ditto a whistle - you're either stood there with the whistle in your mouth at every throw, or you have to realise he's going too far and bring it to your mouth in time to stop the throw. Otherwise (as you quite abruptly pointed out here ), you don't have a legal option of a retake, so have to order a foul throw.

So you can either proactively point out where the throw should be taken from with a clear signal and arm out - meaning if a player chooses to ignore that, it's entirely on him. Or you take your approach, whistle/warn too late and are then forced to either order a foul throw through no fault of the player, or allow an non-LOTG-compliant retake, and associated delay of game as the ball is returned to the thrower.

The former approach is proactive modern refereeing, the latter approach is outdated and reactive.

 

[Anubis]

I answered all those questions? "Side-on" throw isn't going to go very far at all, with a run-up you're specifically telling him where to target the end of his run-up - and as I clearly laid out in the post I replied to, there's nothing stopping you setting off a split-second early, knowing that he should already be targeting a point. I should also point out that we're supposed to be judging if the mechanism of the throw is legal, which is marginally easier to do from level with the player in question than ahead of them, particularly if there's a concern of their back foot lifting.

I can easily point out flaws in your approach too FYI. If a player is running forwards to take a throw, how exactly do you fit the sentence " thats you fine there" in the time between where he passes the point you want him to throw and the moment of release 5 yards further down the line? Ditto a whistle - you're either stood there with the whistle in your mouth at every throw, or you have to realise he's going too far and bring it to your mouth in time to stop the throw. Otherwise (as you quite abruptly pointed out here ), you don't have a legal option of a retake, so have to order a foul throw.

So you can either proactively point out where the throw should be taken from with a clear signal and arm out - meaning if a player chooses to ignore that, it's entirely on him. Or you take your approach, whistle/warn too late and are then forced to either order a foul throw through no fault of the player, or allow an non-LOTG-compliant retake, and associated delay of game as the ball is returned to the thrower.

The former approach is proactive modern refereeing, the latter approach is outdated and reactive.

could not disagree more.

we move on

 

[Justylove]

A top tip I received was to let the thrower know “level with me, no further”
Typically they know where the mark is and if they start moving up the line I reiterate
“You know where the mark is, let’s go back please, no further”

In and around the opponents penalty area this is fine, using "level with the edge of the 18" or "level with the penalty spot" is a good tool as generally any run up for the throw is not up the line to gain yards.

Further back on the field in that middle third, I'm not a fan of the "level with <x>, no further" and the reason is that I don't want to back myself into a corner in terms of my decisions.

The moment I give a fixed "no further" then if the player goes anywhere beyond that I'm forced to make a decision as to whether I let it go (and often this causes issues with the defending team where they'll point out "you said no further than there and it's taken a yard beyond"), I'm forced to penalise with a foul throw, or I'm being really pedantic and whistling again before the throw to move the player back again.

Clearly there's degrees, if the player is taking 5 yards more, it's an easy sell, but if it's half a yard, you've still set a line in the sand.

Real life example, on the line recently for a Step 3 game. Away side have a throw about 10 yards inside the home teams half, over by the away dugout. Player is looking to go up the line into the right wing area, referee shouts "no further than me" player is about a yard advanced from the refs position, turns and throws the ball backwards 7-8 yards to his right back. Ref hits the whistle and awards a foul throw and in the aftermath he ends up cautioning the away team manager.

We had exactly the conversation after the game, he felt like he had to penalise as he'd clearly stated where the throw was to be taken from, even though the thrower had gone backwards into a non threatening area. Completely avoidable caution and tough next 10-15 minutes with players testing his match control over something that had he managed it better, no-one would have even mentioned.

 

[GraemeS]

could not disagree more.

we move on

Not answering the question. Standard.

If you're going to come into an advice thread and give bad advice to a new referee, you don't just get to unilaterally declare the end of the discussion!

 

[GraemeS]

In and around the opponents penalty area this is fine, using "level with the edge of the 18" or "level with the penalty spot" is a good tool as generally any run up for the throw is not up the line to gain yards.

Further back on the field in that middle third, I'm not a fan of the "level with <x>, no further" and the reason is that I don't want to back myself into a corner in terms of my decisions.

The moment I give a fixed "no further" then if the player goes anywhere beyond that I'm forced to make a decision as to whether I let it go (and often this causes issues with the defending team where they'll point out "you said no further than there and it's taken a yard beyond"), I'm forced to penalise with a foul throw, or I'm being really pedantic and whistling again before the throw to move the player back again.

Clearly there's degrees, if the player is taking 5 yards more, it's an easy sell, but if it's half a yard, you've still set a line in the sand.

Real life example, on the line recently for a Step 3 game. Away side have a throw about 10 yards inside the home teams half, over by the away dugout. Player is looking to go up the line into the right wing area, referee shouts "no further than me" player is about a yard advanced from the refs position, turns and throws the ball backwards 7-8 yards to his right back. Ref hits the whistle and awards a foul throw and in the aftermath he ends up cautioning the away team manager.

We had exactly the conversation after the game, he felt like he had to penalise as he'd clearly stated where the throw was to be taken from, even though the thrower had gone backwards into a non threatening area. Completely avoidable caution and tough next 10-15 minutes with players testing his match control over something that had he managed it better, no-one would have even mentioned.

As kind of came up in the discussion before, it's a tool that has to be used with a bit of common sense. I'll usually take "in your own half please" as good enough for any uncontested defensive throws, and as you say, will happily use the pitch markings for any attacking throws or situations where a defending team is being boxed in their own corner. "Level with me" only really comes into play for the distance between the half-way line and the opponents PA.

Depends as well if you actually want to be penalising. If a team is constantly pushing their luck, I'll set a point, stand dead still and then whistle for the foul throw once the ball is released. Easy sell if the thrower is then standing clearly ahead of you. On the other hand, if you just want to get on with it, get moving as/just before the ball is thrown and it's not actually going to be that clear where the point is you set - you can easily just say that he was level and get on with the game.

I'm also a fan of picking a throw early on to be picky about - done well, you can have players looking at you for the position at each throw without you even having to ask!

 

[Anubis]

Not answering the question. Standard.

If you're going to come into an advice thread and give bad advice to a new referee, you don't just get to unilaterally declare the end of the discussion!

i do get to publically attempt to end a petty squabble.

you have your view,: me mine,

i wont change mine, nor you yours.

for the benefit of anybody not wishing see handbags mid flight, next!

very much doubt am entrusted in my role if am giving out bad advice. I dont just issue advice to randoms online, i do it practically, paid, by the national FA
pretty sure if the advice is bad, they might well have something to say about it.

now, kindly, we disagree on this matter, which is healthy, so, we move on

 

[Jamesboy187]

Thanks for all the advice, pointers opinions etc, I am new to this chat forum.
Ex player and Ex coach so I'm finding my way in the middle so all good information to consider going forward and i'm always looking to better myself, my position on the pitch and the knowledge to handle improved and informed decision making and am happy to ignore being "told off" like I'm doing the worst thing in the world

 

[Big Cat]

Real life example, on the line recently for a Step 3 game. Away side have a throw about 10 yards inside the home teams half, over by the away dugout. Player is looking to go up the line into the right wing area, referee shouts "no further than me" player is about a yard advanced from the refs position, turns and throws the ball backwards 7-8 yards to his right back. Ref hits the whistle and awards a foul throw and in the aftermath he ends up cautioning the away team manager.

We had exactly the conversation after the game, he felt like he had to penalise as he'd clearly stated where the throw was to be taken from, even though the thrower had gone backwards into a non threatening area. Completely avoidable caution and tough next 10-15 minutes with players testing his match control over something that had he managed it better, no-one would have even mentioned.

That's just poor game management

It leads me into my advice
'Don't get involved with minor infarctions of the rules'. Furthermore, let the game steer the minor decisions (Uncertain ball in/out of play for example). The 'participant's tide of opinion' will lead to much better Match Control than our guessing
The direction of the tide will be determined by KMD's

 

[Justylove]

That's just poor game management

It leads me into my advice
'Don't get involved with minor infarctions of the rules'. Furthermore, let the game steer the minor decisions (Uncertain ball in/out of play for example). The 'participant's tide of opinion' will lead to much better Match Control than our guessing
The direction of the tide will be determined by KMD's

Agreed - but he'd set himself up for it because he'd drawn a line and the defending team made the point that "he'd said no further"

 

[Big Cat]

Agreed - but he'd set himself up for it because he'd drawn a line and the defending team made the point that "he'd said no further"

Once the throw goes backwards though... Forget the line drawn... Common sense... The line is drawn to negate an advantage. No advantage was gained...
I'm a 'path of least resistance Ref'. Although that in itself is a basic skill AND a very advanced competency. Excessive 'safe Reffing' is a disaster, for example

 

[Russell Jones]

Thirty posts into this thread and not one pedant has yet pointed out that it's technically also an offence to take a throw in from clearly behind (ie nearer the thrower's own goal) the correct point on the touch line. Whilst it's easy to say that this is just 'accepted', much like the 6 second rule for GK, in reality the throwing team will often do this precisely because they gain an advantage by doing so, eg getting it to the feet of an unnoposed player who can then play it long towards the opponent's penalty area ....

 

[Kes]

Thirty posts into this thread and not one pedant has yet pointed out that it's technically also an offence to take a throw in from clearly behind (ie nearer the thrower's own goal) the correct point on the touch line. Whilst it's easy to say that this is just 'accepted', much like the 6 second rule for GK, in reality the throwing team will often do this precisely because they gain an advantage by doing so, eg getting it to the feet of an unnoposed player who can then play it long towards the opponent's penalty area ....

I was tempted to get into that one but remembered I'd already broached this very example a while back in a thread about the laws we often just gloss over or conveniently turn a blind eye to in the interests of game management or something like that ...

Edit: Yep. This one (post #6). https://www.refchat.co.uk/threads/offside-idfk-from-the-right-place.15796/#post-180970