This is what happens when you are not in line with 2nd last defender

AlexF

Well-Known Member
#24
Completely agree. Obviously assistants should be level with the 2nd last defender, but will still make mistakes as we saw in this case and the Wednesday vs Leeds game, but equally will sometimes not be level and still get it spot on.
In the case of the SWvLU match, I've watched that play 2-3 times now, and I suspect that the AR fell victim to the flash-lag phenomenon.
Player looks to be offside at the time of the pass, but actually isn't, because of the speed our brains process stuff.

There's a really interesting flash-lag experiment online (can't find the link, apologies) that really shows the effect well. The USSF's Professional Referee Organization (PRO) has some really neat offside tests where you have to not only determine offside offence or not, but identify the position of the players at the moment of the pass, and it really demonstrates the effect well.
 

one

Well-Known Member
#25
http://www.law-11.com/flash-lag-effect.html

Also since the thread started with being inch perfect in AR's position, the term “in line with the second last defender” is not precise enough for the ‘perfect’ position and generally implies where your body should be. The inch prefect position is for the left eye of the AR to be on an imaginary surface drawn perpendicular to touchline and touches the closest body part of the second last defender (expect hands/arms) to his goal line.


If the AR’s eyes are on the surface going through the middle of the second last defender then depending how close the defender is to him, he can block his own view of some of the attackers who are offside. So generally the perfect body position of the AR is a little to the right of the second last defender's.
 

santa sangria

Well-Known Member
#28
Is there a simpler explanation in these second case: in the SW vs LU example there are 4 players between the AR and the player about to kick the ball - is his view obstructed at the time of the kick?

The video shows a lot of bodies (edit: should play from 37 secs). At the time of the pass the AR is looking at the line and doesn't know the ball has been passed IMHO. I think the AR only reacts after the ball has travelling 5+ yards.

In the Ghana example the AR has reacted far to late. He is dozing, probably waiting for the final whistle, and only reacts to the shot after the ball has entered the penalty area. Yes, it's a mistake, but I don't think it's anything to do with a few inches this way or that way.

Overall, I think the idea that these bad decisions are due to the ARs being a few inches out of position is fallacious. And I don't think it is realistic to be expecting ARs to be inch perfect every second of a fast-moving top flight match. It's just not humanly possible. These bad decisions are due to not seeing/reacting to the pass/shot at the time the ball is played IMHO of course.
 

Peter Grove

Well-Known Member
#29
Based on that decision alone, I don't think a game should be replayed
Why would there be even the remotest question of the game being replayed? This was not a technical error, it was a judgement call. No matter how bad it was (and although bad, I have seen worse) a misjudged offside call could never be grounds for a replay.
 

Ciley Myrus

I came in like a wrecking ball?
#30
According to media, Ghana have asked FIFA for a replay. Nothing to do with whether I think it should be replayed or not !

on that, am sure you are aware South Africa and Senegal is to be replayed over a penalty call.

So if you can replay a match over a pen call, am sure you can for an offside ?!!
 

Ciley Myrus

I came in like a wrecking ball?
#33
Very serious. I still maintain (and we will never know) had this AR been that shoelace to the right, he would have got this call correct.
A ball over line with is 3 inches over? 3 small inches? Goal? Or no goal as 3 inches is not really a lot ?
Whether 1 inch, 3 inch or 33 inch, I maintain as per screen shot that the AR is too far to the left.
Stand bang in line and get it wrong, ok, it can be excused but to get it wrong and not be bang in line, no, (only for me) no excuse

and yes I wish I was able to be as close as 3 inch to the correct place to stand, sometimes I was happy to be within the same half as the 2nd last defender, so am not critical of this guys ability !

Is he in line? No
where should he be... in line

that's my point and am allowed it, as much as anyone is allowed to have their point too.
 

Ciley Myrus

I came in like a wrecking ball?
#34
No, the South Africa v Senegal game is to be replayed because the referee was accused (and found guilty) of match fixing.

There's a MASSIVE difference there.

Which, had he not given the pen (and of course we will never know), these allegations might not have seen the light of day....
 

santa sangria

Well-Known Member
#35
Very serious. I still maintain (and we will never know) had this AR been that shoelace to the right, he would have got this call correct.
A ball over line with is 3 inches over? 3 small inches? Goal? Or no goal as 3 inches is not really a lot ?
Whether 1 inch, 3 inch or 33 inch, I maintain as per screen shot that the AR is too far to the left.
Stand bang in line and get it wrong, ok, it can be excused but to get it wrong and not be bang in line, no, (only for me) no excuse

and yes I wish I was able to be as close as 3 inch to the correct place to stand, sometimes I was happy to be within the same half as the 2nd last defender, so am not critical of this guys ability !

Is he in line? No
where should he be... in line

that's my point and am allowed it, as much as anyone is allowed to have their point too.
You are entitles to an opinion. But it does seem riduculous and unlikely to be helpful to others IMHO. You have run the line in competitive matches, yes?
 

Ciley Myrus

I came in like a wrecking ball?
#36
The advice is imo helpful. Stay in line! Not fraction or so close, but, in line

And yes thinking back, I do seem to have donned the flag at the highest level possible in my country once or twice.....
 
#37
Very serious. I still maintain (and we will never know) had this AR been that shoelace to the right, he would have got this call correct..
Except if you think that you can tell if the AR was or wasn't inches out of position using a camera shot that's at an angle, then you're actually making the argument that you can have an imperfect view from being out of position.
By trying to hard to argue that the AR was a bees dick out of position you're also actually making the argument that a bit of parallax error doesn't matter anyway.

You're trying to have it both ways here and it doesn't work. I think you need to let this one go mate. It started silly and got worse.
 

Ciley Myrus

I came in like a wrecking ball?
#38
The screen shot I see shows AR OUT the box and 2nd last defender IN the box, not using angles but using the actual pitch markings
This is like Father Ted and the cow (?) sketch

Don't like the thread as its silly, simple, ignore the thread....
 

AlexF

Well-Known Member
#39
The screen shot I see shows AR OUT the box and 2nd last defender IN the box, not using angles but using the actual pitch markings
If you're referring to the screenshot you posted, then that's before the ball was kicked. The one I posted is at the moment of the kick, and shows, based on the grass cutting lines, that the AR is inside the penalty area at the point of the kick, but SUGGESTS that he might not be completely in line, but parallax does make that difficult to tell for certain without doing a bunch of math.
 
#40
The screen shot I see shows AR OUT the box and 2nd last defender IN the box, not using angles but using the actual pitch markings
This is like Father Ted and the cow (?) sketch

Don't like the thread as its silly, simple, ignore the thread....
Actual pitch markings? Pray tell, which is the pitch marking that extends from the edge of the PA to the touch line?
:wall:

AND your screen shot was taken before the ball was kicked.

Come on, you're just being stubborn now.