Teamsheets

[TheRef]

I'm not an English referee and I guess this is mainly an English thing, but why are team sheets not compulsory for every game? I've been seeing lots of people on here talking about not having them.

Where I am we start refereeing at u13 level and team sheets are compulsory even at that age. Makes it so much easier if you have to yellow/red card someone as you just report the number and it identifies who will be in the technical area as well.

 

[Padfoot]

Because the leagues are too weak to actually enforce something onto their teams.

Or the FA is too weak to make it mandatory.......take your pick!

 

[Charlie Jones]

@Padfoot by the indifference in leagues id say its the actual league that doesn't enforce it !! bloody awful

 

[Kes]

Every league should have it written into their League Rules? The leagues I referee in all do. Not only the requirement to produce them, but also the stipulation that they be handed to the referee 15 mins prior to KO and that they be accurate. ie correct numbers etc.
If it's not written into the league rules then there's no "authority" for the ref to quote when insisting before a match kicks off that they be produced. If you have no team sheet, then you have no post-match disciplinary recourse and therefore (especially if the teams know it) no authority or genuine match control.
It's a no-brainer for me. No team sheet - no referee.

 

[Monotone Whistle]

I do have a slight issue with the assumption that just because you have teamsheets and numbers, you can use this to identify offenders. It seems the art of taking a player's name is being eroded, and (assessors on here can correct me if I am wrong) is a mandatory part of the discipline process.

I'm all for team sheets and they help immeasurably, but then taking it as read that the number and name tally up is not effective. I sometimes ask if the numbers/name are correct when I get the teamsheets, but I never rely on it.

 

[lincs22]

I do have a slight issue with the assumption that just because you have teamsheets and numbers, you can use this to identify offenders. It seems the art of taking a player's name is being eroded, and (assessors on here can correct me if I am wrong) is a mandatory part of the discipline process.

Definitely at L4 and below, you are required to follow correct cautioning procedures. A "quick card" will get you a development point and possible mark down. The FA refereeing dept is very clear on this. I believe that it is also required at L3 but cannot be certain.

 

[Kes]

I do have a slight issue with the assumption that just because you have teamsheets and numbers, you can use this to identify offenders. It seems the art of taking a player's name is being eroded, and (assessors on here can correct me if I am wrong) is a mandatory part of the discipline process.

I'm all for team sheets and they help immeasurably, but then taking it as read that the number and name tally up is not effective. I sometimes ask if the numbers/name are correct when I get the teamsheets, but I never rely on it.

You're right (and wrong) in that.

Of course, any teamsheets you're given might be a load of old rubbish. You've no way of knowing if the names and numbers on it are correct anyway. By the same token, you've no way of knowing if the name a player gives to you is actually correct (irrespective of whatever it might say on said sheet). The important thing from the ref's point of view surely isn't the info contained on the sheet, but rather the fact that you at least have something to go off in the event of disciplinary stuff needing doing. At the very least,with a team sheet of some description, you've still got something with which to contact the FA and throw at them to resolve with the club. If you didn't get a teamsheet, and have only the info which the miscreant himself offered up, then you deserve any hassle you get as a result. Any discrepancies/disputes etc are completely not the fault of the referee if he's going off the teamsheet which the club have given to him as mandated. The minute you start a match without one - you're at fault yourself and anything you write down or claim could be called into question. (Just playing devils advocate here ).

As an aside, the practice of taking a player's name (ceratinly at grass roots level) is something which is still very much part of the on-field disciplinary process and will never be "eroded". It's only at top class level the ref is seen to simply brandish the card and nothing else.

 

[Russell Jones]

@Kes , you make it sound very black and white. And in some ways it is. In Leagues where the rules require team sheets you have every right to insist on them and on getting them the required time before the game. If, on the other hand, the league rules don't require team sheets (certainly the case in all of my youth leagues and on some of the Junior O/A) then you've no chance of getting one and will just wind people up by asking for one. Obviously it makes it a little trickier to sort out discipline stuff post match but as long as you're clear on the names given to you (or that NO name was given to you!) then you can still do your job .. and the Whole Game System really helps much of the time with the pre-populated lists of players on there.

 

[Charlie Jones]

I personally like the team sheets so I can copy all of the names into my match record - when it comes to booking I can then just go to their number, confirm name and quicker card than usual

 

[Kes]

@Kes , you make it sound very black and white. And in some ways it is. In Leagues where the rules require team sheets you have every right to insist on them and on getting them the required time before the game. If, on the other hand, the league rules don't require team sheets (certainly the case in all of my youth leagues and on some of the Junior O/A) then you've no chance of getting one and will just wind people up by asking for one. Obviously it makes it a little trickier to sort out discipline stuff post match but as long as you're clear on the names given to you (or that NO name was given to you!) then you can still do your job .. and the Whole Game System really helps much of the time with the pre-populated lists of players on there.

I agree totally Russell. But if a nonedescript little Saturday league in Somerset can get it set in stone that teams must do it - there's no excuse for any other league not to do the same. I mean, why wouldn't you have it as a bog-standard requirement anyway? Especially where youngsters are concerned? The stupidity of some staggers me. How do you accurately manage the substitutions issue?
Imagine a scenario where you're refereeing an adult match and it all kicks off and there are several cases of violent conduct (and potentially later charges of assault to be brought) and you don't even have a (accurate or not) basic list of the players who were were (meant) to be out there? What a joke that would be. Not ranting or anything mate, I'm just shocked that there are organisations out there that don't adhere to even basic common-sense principle.

 

[jofusref]

in my part of scotland it is very simple, no team sheets no game, ref goes home reports the clubs

 

[TheRef]

Ah, so it's a league thing governing whether or not teams have team sheets?

I certainly find that team sheets make everything a whole lot easier and can't believe that some leagues don't have them mandatory.

 

[TheRef]

I do have a slight issue with the assumption that just because you have teamsheets and numbers, you can use this to identify offenders. It seems the art of taking a player's name is being eroded, and (assessors on here can correct me if I am wrong) is a mandatory part of the discipline process.

I'm all for team sheets and they help immeasurably, but then taking it as read that the number and name tally up is not effective. I sometimes ask if the numbers/name are correct when I get the teamsheets, but I never rely on it.

I don't think I've actually ever taken a players name when I have cautioned them. I just make a note of the number and then his name is whatever is on the team sheet. Have been coached this way as well. I guess the line of thinking is that team sheets are accurate and if they are not then it is the teams problem.

 

[CapnBloodbeard]

I do have a slight issue with the assumption that just because you have teamsheets and numbers, you can use this to identify offenders. It seems the art of taking a player's name is being eroded, and (assessors on here can correct me if I am wrong) is a mandatory part of the discipline process.

I'm all for team sheets and they help immeasurably, but then taking it as read that the number and name tally up is not effective. I sometimes ask if the numbers/name are correct when I get the teamsheets, but I never rely on it.

If a player gives you a false name, you have no way of knowing it - put the report in and if the team have done the wrong thing and get caught, that's their problem.
Same with the teamsheet - if they're found to have filled out the sheet incorrectly by not matching name to number, then that's their problem and they can get in strife as a result. Referee only needs to record who they've booked - they don't need to verify that identity.
Fortunately, I'm in Australia where we always use teamsheets, so no referee ever asks for the name. Thus, it would be weird to - but really, it's a redundant step with a teamsheet, IMO. But I guess that's the culture here.
Personally I think not having to worry about the name on the field just helps things moving quicker - and given how many problems arise from having to get the player's name, I can't imagine why you'd want to stick with that process!

 

[Peter Grove]

It's only at top class level the ref is seen to simply brandish the card and nothing else.

I think they actually brandish the card and make a note of the number/team, at least that's what Graham Poll said he did in the infamous "three cards" incident (putting down the wrong team for the second card, due to Simunic's Australian accent, according to his account of the matter).

Although as Kes says, it's how they do it at the top level, I can't help thinking that if Poll had taken the player's name instead of just his number, he might have avoided the ignominy that ensued.

 

[Charlie Jones]

I also find that if Poll had actually looked at Simunic's red/white check shirt - he'd have noticed a massive indifference to Australia's yellow and green? lol

 

[Peter Grove]

I was going to say - he must also have developed a sudden and highly unusual type of colour blindness.

 

[Peter Grove]

I also find that if Poll had actually looked at Simunic's red/white check shirt - he'd have noticed a massive indifference to Australia's yellow and green? lol

Although perhaps it was his indifference to the colours that was the problem?

 

[AlexF]

Based on his book and reading how he took notes, he may have just had a momentary brain fart, such as:

#7, AUS, YC1, 43/1
#7, CRO, YC2, 22/2

Which would indicate that he'd book Australia #7 (whoops, wrong team) for USB in the 43rd minute of the 1st half, then booked Croatia #7 for dissent in the 22nd minute of the 2nd half...

 

[CapnBloodbeard]

It's a very easy mistake to make if you've just noted something in the wrong column, or couldn't read your own writing. It's the fact that his team didn't pick up on it that I found inexplicable.