Team Official Second Caution
- Thread starter JamesL
- Start date
Thanks everyone for answering the poll. As I suspected the vast majority of us think that the normal procedure applies to second cautions, that procedure being to show a yellow card followed by a red card.
Interestingly, this procedure isn't particularly well set out in the law themselves but it is what football expects.
You're probably all wondering, except @RefereeX, what prompted the question.
Firstly, in a written outcome for an appeal the panel had written:
This was queried in another group I am in and initially the advice was this was correct, that is a 2nd caution for a team official should be communicated as a direct red card and that was what lead me to starting the post as I was interested in how many would actually know this.
That developed across the day with clarifications sought from the FA and PGMO and it transpires that PGMOL have instructed their referees to not show second yellows, but a direct red card, where a participant commits a second caution offence. The FA offer an alternative view on how this should be managed by anyone operating outside PGMO:
"Competitions which are officiated by match officials appointed by the PGMOL have created and signed up to a participant charter and the guidance here is a straight red card.
However any competition where officials are appointed by The FA have not signed up to this charter.
So referees should show a second yellow card followed by a red card."
We were also advised that any official who does not follow this could be marked down by an observer as they are not following law.
A colleague also emailed IFAB and got a typically IFAB response. I say typically IFAB as I can't find where it actually says what the practise should be, but I think it is inferred by the use of "receives a second caution", i.e. they should be shown the yellow card to indicate caution and then red to indicate sent off.
So @Mr Dean and @one yes a seemingly straightforward law question (I'll take your comments as compliments
) but I hope this provides context for what the driver behind the post was.
Interestingly, this procedure isn't particularly well set out in the law themselves but it is what football expects.
You're probably all wondering, except @RefereeX, what prompted the question.
Firstly, in a written outcome for an appeal the panel had written:
This was queried in another group I am in and initially the advice was this was correct, that is a 2nd caution for a team official should be communicated as a direct red card and that was what lead me to starting the post as I was interested in how many would actually know this.
That developed across the day with clarifications sought from the FA and PGMO and it transpires that PGMOL have instructed their referees to not show second yellows, but a direct red card, where a participant commits a second caution offence. The FA offer an alternative view on how this should be managed by anyone operating outside PGMO:
"Competitions which are officiated by match officials appointed by the PGMOL have created and signed up to a participant charter and the guidance here is a straight red card.
However any competition where officials are appointed by The FA have not signed up to this charter.
So referees should show a second yellow card followed by a red card."
We were also advised that any official who does not follow this could be marked down by an observer as they are not following law.
A colleague also emailed IFAB and got a typically IFAB response. I say typically IFAB as I can't find where it actually says what the practise should be, but I think it is inferred by the use of "receives a second caution", i.e. they should be shown the yellow card to indicate caution and then red to indicate sent off.
So @Mr Dean and @one yes a seemingly straightforward law question (I'll take your comments as compliments
) but I hope this provides context for what the driver behind the post was.So the inevitable question, why is a straight red in the 'participant charter'?!
Interesting. I always would have shown a second caution, but then like I say, at our county cup finals evening, it was a law question that came up and we were informed that the correct answer was to show a direct red card. With that said, our RDO would receive the PGMOL guidance, so maybe he doesn't realise that the FA offer a contrary view.Thanks everyone for answering the poll. As I suspected the vast majority of us think that the normal procedure applies to second cautions, that procedure being to show a yellow card followed by a red card.
Interestingly, this procedure isn't particularly well set out in the law themselves but it is what football expects.
You're probably all wondering, except @RefereeX, what prompted the question.
Firstly, in a written outcome for an appeal the panel had written:
View attachment 7221
This was queried in another group I am in and initially the advice was this was correct, that is a 2nd caution for a team official should be communicated as a direct red card and that was what lead me to starting the post as I was interested in how many would actually know this.
That developed across the day with clarifications sought from the FA and PGMO and it transpires that PGMOL have instructed their referees to not show second yellows, but a direct red card, where a participant commits a second caution offence. The FA offer an alternative view on how this should be managed by anyone operating outside PGMO:
"Competitions which are officiated by match officials appointed by the PGMOL have created and signed up to a participant charter and the guidance here is a straight red card.
However any competition where officials are appointed by The FA have not signed up to this charter.
So referees should show a second yellow card followed by a red card."
We were also advised that any official who does not follow this could be marked down by an observer as they are not following law.
A colleague also emailed IFAB and got a typically IFAB response. I say typically IFAB as I can't find where it actually says what the practise should be, but I think it is inferred by the use of "receives a second caution", i.e. they should be shown the yellow card to indicate caution and then red to indicate sent off.
View attachment 7222
So @Mr Dean and @one yes a seemingly straightforward law question (I'll take your comments as compliments
one
RefChat Addict
Many things in law are not spelt out directly but easily inferred.
Law 5: The referee: has the power to show yellow or red cards...
Law 5: The referee takes action against team officials who fail to act in a responsible manner and warns or shows a yellow card for a caution or a red card...
Law 12: Disciplinary action: The yellow card communicates a caution...
Law 12: Team officials: Sending-off: receiving a second caution in the same match
There can't be a clearer inference than the law requires a yellow card to be showed for any cautionable offence, first or second, to team officials.
For me, the directive in the charter directly contradicts the law, but this is not and wont be the first time that a top flight league or referee body has done this.
So did you appeal an Observation Report? And the Panel incorrectly upheld the notion that you should have only shown a red card?Thanks everyone for answering the poll. As I suspected the vast majority of us think that the normal procedure applies to second cautions, that procedure being to show a yellow card followed by a red card.
Interestingly, this procedure isn't particularly well set out in the law themselves but it is what football expects.
You're probably all wondering, except @RefereeX, what prompted the question.
Firstly, in a written outcome for an appeal the panel had written:
View attachment 7221
This was queried in another group I am in and initially the advice was this was correct, that is a 2nd caution for a team official should be communicated as a direct red card and that was what lead me to starting the post as I was interested in how many would actually know this.
That developed across the day with clarifications sought from the FA and PGMO and it transpires that PGMOL have instructed their referees to not show second yellows, but a direct red card, where a participant commits a second caution offence. The FA offer an alternative view on how this should be managed by anyone operating outside PGMO:
"Competitions which are officiated by match officials appointed by the PGMOL have created and signed up to a participant charter and the guidance here is a straight red card.
However any competition where officials are appointed by The FA have not signed up to this charter.
So referees should show a second yellow card followed by a red card."
We were also advised that any official who does not follow this could be marked down by an observer as they are not following law.
A colleague also emailed IFAB and got a typically IFAB response. I say typically IFAB as I can't find where it actually says what the practise should be, but I think it is inferred by the use of "receives a second caution", i.e. they should be shown the yellow card to indicate caution and then red to indicate sent off.
View attachment 7222
So @Mr Dean and @one yes a seemingly straightforward law question (I'll take your comments as compliments
Not me, no. A colleague came across this online so I assume the appeal is actually the recipient of the cards, hence it being published. I don't even know what game it is.
I agree. My argument was/is that if law was being interpreted that a manager shouldn't be shown the second yellow, before the red, then by that same virtue the same would be said for players.
That said if I were ever to get to a level that I have to follow PGMOL directives I sure ain't going to be arguing with them
socal lurker
RefChat Addict
For decades, a second yellow card was not shown. And it is really unnecessary, as the game at hand is unaffected by whether it was a 2CT or a straight red. I believe it was around 1990, when cards first appeared in the Laws, that the showing of a second yellow was added so participants would know immediately if it was a second cautionable offense or a straight send off offense. Perhaps the thought process is that no one cares if the touchline is getting a second caution or a straight send off? But having a separate protocol is bewildering to me.
It's not that long that we've actually showed cards to technical area occupants at all though is it? I did my course around 2017 and seem to believe it was around then that it was brought in.
Later than that I think. I would guess at 2018/19 season. Maybe 1 later.
santa sangria
RefChat Addict
Law 12, team officials, sending off… “receiving a second caution in the same match” seems pretty clear to me.
How can you receive a second caution if you are not shown a yellow card..?
How can you receive a second caution if you are not shown a yellow card..?