Ciley Myrus
RefChat Addict
Dissent, is one thing. and use of offensive, insulting and abusive langauage, is something else
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Swearing on the pitch
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Ciley Myrus
RefChat Addict
"CIley"
Murri O
Well-Known Member
Does the pre-match talk constitute a 'first' warning for everything then?
IE. The first 'whatever' once the game starts is a sanction because you've already had words?
I'm Lexdyslic!!!
Murri O
Well-Known Member
Fair enough. Will take this on board.
Ciley Myrus
RefChat Addict
I hope not given its a reoccuring theme about prematch talks and their relevance, or lack of....
No, you are acknowledging that the language is potentially offensive and so are trying to prevent the offence. If Mrs Brown is not present or does not hear the potentially offensive language then the only offence is dissent due to the language used being language that you have specifically said that you don't want to hear.
Justylove
RefChat Addict
if a player commits a foul and said Mrs Brown thinks it warrants a yellow card, should you caution the player, even if you do not?
What if you think a foul is a DOGSO and Mrs Brown doesn't, do you go with her or your own judgement.
The same applies to dissent and OFFINABUS, it's down to the opinion of the referee
one
RefChat Addict
You are comparing apples and oranges. A case of a foul or a DOGSO has nothing to do with what Mrs Brown thinks as far as the LOTG goes. If something said is offensive or not is dependent on if she is offended or not, although that is determined by the referee and not Mrs Brown.
the LOTG never says it has to be offensive to the referee or players. Anyone can be offended by the language.
Justylove
RefChat Addict
It's not apples and oranges.
Being Offended and finding something Offensive are two different things.
My point is that the LOTG states "in the opinion of the referee" so the only person who needs to decide whether something is offensive or not is the referee.
Likewise, a player running through on goal and being fouled, the only person who's opinion counts as to whether it's a DOGSO or not is the referee. The referee will take all factors into account before deciding.
Being Offended and finding something Offensive are two different things.
My point is that the LOTG states "in the opinion of the referee" so the only person who needs to decide whether something is offensive or not is the referee.
Likewise, a player running through on goal and being fouled, the only person who's opinion counts as to whether it's a DOGSO or not is the referee. The referee will take all factors into account before deciding.
zarathustra
RefChat Addict
True, but we need to work on whether anyone else might find something offensive, whether we are bothered by the language or not.
So we do need to take into account where the match is and who is watching. A pitch in the middle of nowhere with no spectators would be different to a council pitch sounded by houses etc.
Padfoot
The Persecuted One
Wow.....just wow.
What an utter pile of tripe.....nothing more than a slackers charter to deliberately avoid doing the job properly. No wonder refereeing standards are plummeting......
one
RefChat Addict
@Padfoot can I present you with a simple scenario and ask how you would handle it?
In the second minute of the game the striker misses a simple tap in. He angrily yells out "F#*k" looking at the sky. Its clearly in frustration but said very loud for all spectators to hear it. There are many women and children in there.
In the second minute of the game the striker misses a simple tap in. He angrily yells out "F#*k" looking at the sky. Its clearly in frustration but said very loud for all spectators to hear it. There are many women and children in there.
Justylove
RefChat Addict
@Padfoot do not presume to comment on my ability or standards based on a simple post.
My point is simple. It is up to the referee to decide what is an isn't a offence as stated in the LOTG, no one else's. There is context needed based on the location of the game and the surrounding area.
Padfoot
The Persecuted One
If only it was such a simple scenario.......there are lots of factors that could be relevant.
Is it a venue where the CFA/league/club has had numerous complaints about language, who have then asked referees to be extra vigilant?
Have you given any sort of pre match to the players concerning language?
Has anyone complained about the shout?
Is it a Christian League where there is an expectation that any offensive language will be dealt with in line with the LOTG?
And....I see that you are probably confusing my earlier responses regarding what action should have been taken with how I would deal with your supposedly "simple" scenario.....
So....personally, this is how I deal with OFFINABUS......
1. I never give a pre match talk to the players.....they don't care, don't understand and don't listen. My pre match with the captains is spectacularly brief consisting of "Play to the whistle and control your hot heads before I have to".....
2. Unless it's a venue where there have been issues with OFFINABUS and there is a directive in place that such offences are to be clamped down on....in which case the captains will be told and it's up to them to sort their players out.
3. For your scenario above....presuming it's not a highlighted venue, then I'm doing exactly nothing. And this is where you will be thinking "AHA! Got him!"......sorry to pop that little bubble of elation but you really haven't. The reason? Simple......it's called the LOTG. If you are going to deal with a player for using offensive, insulting and/or abusive language, there is only one sanction permissible under the LOTG....and that's a red card. No warnings, no cautions, no 2nd chances...it's red. Bearing in mind that context is important with these things as well...so a shout in frustration is not going to necessarily tweak my OFFINABUS radar. If it was a venue where referees had been instructed to deal with these offences strictly, then the captains would be told pre match that any OFFINABUS would be dealt with strictly in line with the LOTG.....then you will have 2 options during the game......pretend you didn't hear it, or deal with it correctly.
The minute you decide that a players language is so unacceptable that you need to take further action you only have one course of action available to you as per the LOTG....anything else is a cop out.
And no, swearing is not dissent........it's possible to dissent without swearing, it's possible to commit OFFINABUS without swearing.....it's possible to swear and not commit either....as I said...context.
BUT...if you have warned players before the game that swearing is unacceptable.......then if you with to take further action when they ignore it......you only have the option of dismissal. Trying to dress it up as dissent is simply trying to excuse not applying the LOTG correctly. A massive, unadulterated, negligent cop out. Don't do it.
zarathustra
RefChat Addict
Justylove
RefChat Addict
That's not in doubt. IF you decide something is Offensive, Insulting or Abusive language or behaviour, then you punish with a Sending Off.
Ignoring the Abusive or Insulting elements as they are much more obvious, when it comes to offensive my question is "Who decides what is offensive?" And my answer is that is the role of the referee, no one else.
As with everything in this role, there are things that are clearly black or white, however there are a whole load of shades of grey in between.
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