Correct about the sub giving dissent.
Sin Bins - are you finding they help?
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Gamespoiler
Well-Known Member
I’m not sure if it’s working or not as nearly every game so far I’ve done at least 1 sinbin. Not getting them contested and have had 3 reds following the sinbin due to subsequent offinabus. Still getting the 1 gobby player that all teams especially at open age have and despite stepped approach during the game, they end up in the bin as they simply can’t self-regulate. Have had players come back on and apologise and some just throwing the toys out of the pram. So mixed bag for me. But I do like to send gobby players to the bin
I'm still open minded on the idea. I personally found dissent could be managed with just cards. It's curious that I'm now issuing more C2's with Sin Bins in operation. My big concern is that other referees have raised the bar for what constitutes dissent and that's skewing the stats to make the initiative look successful. Referees may be doing this for a number of reasons, like 'the punishment not fitting the crime' or they're bottling what constitutes a 'mini-dismissal'. I've also seen referees brag about not using sin bins, like an 'achievement'
I haven't had one yet, although haven't refereed a lot of games this season. No one has properly gobbed off at me yet, and where it has been low level I've managed it making it very clear what will happen if they continue, using other players to help manage that message if necessary.
Had a dissent yellow after the full time whistle though recently, and no sooner had I put it away the red came out for his manager ....
Had a dissent yellow after the full time whistle though recently, and no sooner had I put it away the red came out for his manager ....
Justylove
RefChat Addict
In general it's been positive for me. For the majority of clubs seeing a player sent to the sin bin has had the desired effect and players have got their heads down and played football.
I had one game where the first 16 minutes were awful, I hated every minute of it, but after sin binning a player both sides realised I was serious and settled down and played a really enjoyable 74 more minutes.
I think once teams realise that as a referee you will use the sanction, they calm down in general.
However there are always the teams that it has no effect on and it just ramps up their perception that they are being persecuted and every referee has got it in for them.
There are also referees who are not in favour and may look to either manage or caution for something else rather than use the sin bin, they sadly don't help matters.
I'm in favour of them and think its a much stronger deterrent to player behaviour to lose a player for 10 minutes, rather than them just have a yellow card and a fine come through at some point the following week.
As I say, I'm neutral
This is the key point. I've found that C2 and C2 Sin Bins have a comparable effect. Maybe the difference is more notable when there's more to lose... higher up the ladder
RefJef
RefChat Addict
I’d partially agree with that, but illustrate my caveat with an example:
one particular player I regularly referee is always somewhat “chirpy” He knew my tolerance levels, would push up to them, and go beyond, accepting YC and then shutting up for the rest of the game.
This season, he pushes up to my tolerance level, and then stops. He doesn’t want to lose 10 mins playing time so He shuts up just that little bit earlier. In previous seasons, he’d take the YC and £10 fine - water of a ducks back.
deusex
RefChat Addict
County Cup semi final,
The academy robot in the middle had a bit of a hard time manging dissent as he didn't want to send someone away for 10 mins in such an important match. It would have been much easier to dish a 1st half caution £10 fine out.
All that has happened is the bar for a dissent caution has been raised considerably.
This is why C2 cautions are down.
No doubt the FA will hail the success of this, but then they are idiots.
The academy robot in the middle had a bit of a hard time manging dissent as he didn't want to send someone away for 10 mins in such an important match. It would have been much easier to dish a 1st half caution £10 fine out.
All that has happened is the bar for a dissent caution has been raised considerably.
This is why C2 cautions are down.
No doubt the FA will hail the success of this, but then they are idiots.
afronaut81
Well-Known Member
Totally understand and sympathise with the ref here.
However: As a community, Football HAS to make the conversation focus on the player for being sent off rather than the referee for sending him off.
A referee can only impose a sanction when a participant has offended. The reason that a player is sin binned is his own actions.
For some reason the above scenario reminds me of those drivers you hear about that have 20+ points on their license as the Courts have taken pity and they need to drive for their income. Whilst I have sympathy for the offender, the Law is there to discourage offending and prevent reoffending. Our job is to uphold the Laws of the Game and if we are making exceptions because of the event circumstances we are starting to haggle over the value of those Laws.
Perhaps the County FA and the referee should be speaking to the teams before the match to say - no back chat as your team will pay the price
zarathustra
RefChat Addict
I think that you have always had referees who, for whatever reason, want to avoid using their cards.
I did a game once and the referee dodged an easy caution for a reckless challenge because, as he told us at half time, he did want to deal with any problems i.e. the offending player/team getting difficult.
You'd think giving someone a 10 minute sit down in a semi final would a much better punishment than a simple £10 fine.
Imagine being responsible for cost your team the match because you couldnt keep your mouth shut
I did a game once and the referee dodged an easy caution for a reckless challenge because, as he told us at half time, he did want to deal with any problems i.e. the offending player/team getting difficult.
You'd think giving someone a 10 minute sit down in a semi final would a much better punishment than a simple £10 fine.
Imagine being responsible for cost your team the match because you couldnt keep your mouth shut
Justylove
RefChat Addict
I know a guy who is an ex Premier League player, who is now a youth coach. His mentality with his players around dissent and also " soft penalties " has always been that the player is giving control of the situation to the referee and by saying or acting in the way they have are giving the referee a decision to make. Quite simply, keep your mouth shut and don't give the ref a decision to make, or say it and don't be surprised at the consequences.
Think that is a bit harsh. Almost every referee goes into a cup final with a slightly different approach and tries not to be the centre of attention. I've been on the wrong side of this where I was forced into action and had an early red and a huge number of yellows, almost all for the same team, and I can honestly say I didn't enjoy the game at all.
That said, cup final or not, I don't think it being a cup final or not would affect my approach to a dissent caution.
This is where experience counts far more than potential or natural ability. Anyone who has been around for a couple of seasons can tell you that a semi final is a much different animal to a final. A semi final is a game to be ground out with every effort by the team to try to get to 90 minutes with 25 still on the field. A final is an occasion to manage and not spoil. I used to be involved in quite a few semi finals in the middle and line in the final, because those sort of games suited my style of refereeing.
Kes
I'll Decide ...
I don't really think much has changed in my matches in terms of the incidence of dissent. Players still gob off like they used to.
If anything though, it has made the impact of dissent (ie losing a player for 10 mins) more of a team concern than the previous simple yellow and a £10 fine for the individual. I've found myself talking to team captains more as a result, using the threat of a sin bin as a means to encourage leadership on their part, which seems to be received positively.
I can't recall hearing team captains telling their players to (eg) "FFS shut up will you Paul, we wanna win this match" last season.
I was sceptical before, but have actually come around to thinking that sin bins are more effective as a tool than I imagined they'd be.
If anything though, it has made the impact of dissent (ie losing a player for 10 mins) more of a team concern than the previous simple yellow and a £10 fine for the individual. I've found myself talking to team captains more as a result, using the threat of a sin bin as a means to encourage leadership on their part, which seems to be received positively.
I can't recall hearing team captains telling their players to (eg) "FFS shut up will you Paul, we wanna win this match" last season.
I was sceptical before, but have actually come around to thinking that sin bins are more effective as a tool than I imagined they'd be.
Thanks for the responses.
I see the FA are claiming a 38% reduction in dissent however isnt that simply because the sin bin cautions are not being reported as a yellow card?
The FAW are bringing in a new automated system across the board next season - I doubt there will be an option to report sin bin dissent on there in which case referees will have to complete the on-line portal and a separate misconduct sheet. How does this work elsewhere?
I see the FA are claiming a 38% reduction in dissent however isnt that simply because the sin bin cautions are not being reported as a yellow card?
The FAW are bringing in a new automated system across the board next season - I doubt there will be an option to report sin bin dissent on there in which case referees will have to complete the on-line portal and a separate misconduct sheet. How does this work elsewhere?
I've seen C1 AA a number of times when on the line
Overall, sin bins probably help with dissent. I'll be taking any stats from the FA with a pinch of salt however (for reasons not of the FA's making)
Just did an U13 academy tournament including a PL, Championship and League One and Two teams. All of them were great until I had my middle. I ended up having 2 cautions for dissent and a red card for two lots of dissent (definitely could’ve been OFFINABUS but two yellows sufficed as I was already cautioning him anyway). I feel as if we had sin bins available, it’d have been so much easier. Couldn’t believe the language from one team, absolutely disgraceful for U13s but a sin bin probably would’ve prevented most of it
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