Sheffield Utd Vs Brighton

[Mooseybaby]

Horrible knee high lunge by Mason Holgate on Mitoma. Initially given as a yellow card, but referee Stuart Atwell is quickly sent to the screen to review by VAR Michael Oliver and the yellow card is upgraded to a straight red.

My issue with the incident is Stuart Atwell effectively appearing to ignore players squaring up and shoving each other then he's gone to the screen whilst the shoving match continues. No sign of the AR stepping to support.

 

[Mooseybaby]

2 handed shove in the back no longer considered a foul in the box or a C&O error

 

[Paul_10]

I always say the same opinion that SG1 referees weakness is identifying SFP on the field of play and VAR has exposed that but I will give Attwell the benefit of the doubt as I don't think he had the best view. I do hope though the yellow came out because of advise from one of his assistants and not the reaction of the Brighton players.

Either way, good use of VAR.

 

[Mooseybaby]

I get that Brighton players were angry at the challenge, but Dunk screaming in Attwell's ear with no reaction or disciplinary action is not a good look.

 

[Mooseybaby]

Pick the bones out of that one. Sheffield United goal disallowed after VAR review for offside. Stuart Attwell blew his whistle immediately and appeared to disallow the goal initially for a push or handball in the area by a SU player, but then goes to the screen, talks to the captains and then shows the TV action.

 

[RustyRef]

Pick the bones out of that one. Sheffield United goal disallowed after VAR review for offside. Stuart Attwell blew his whistle immediately and appeared to disallow the goal initially for a push or handball in the area by a SU player, but then goes to the screen, talks to the captains and then shows the TV action.

It's offside, when it hits De Souza's arm Ben Osborn is in an offside position. It then deflects off of a Brighton player but he knew nothing about it.

 

[RustyRef]

I always say the same opinion that SG1 referees weakness is identifying SFP on the field of play and VAR has exposed that but I will give Attwell the benefit of the doubt as I don't think he had the best view. I do hope though the yellow came out because of advise from one of his assistants and not the reaction of the Brighton players.

Either way, good use of VAR.

He can't have seen it, he didn't even initially give a free kick, can only assume the AR on that side told him to give a free kick and caution. Has to be the quickest ever VAR check for SFP, although I agree that heading off to the monitor when players are still pushing and shoving isn't a great idea.

 

[SammyT5]

I do find it slightly concerning that at least one of the officials hadn’t registered Holgate’s tackle as SFP. Though I suppose that is what VAR is there for at the end of the day. I just get the sense that some officials are erring on the side of caution to allow VAR to then step in, which isn’t how it should be used.

The offside is definitely the right call. The Brighton defender didn’t deliberately play the ball - it was little more than a deflection, the Sheffield United player was way offside.

I think it’s right to look at the way he dealt with the aftermath of the Holgate challenge, and it would be nice from my point of view to see him take action against such a reaction. I do think however that by removing himself from the situation it actually diffused the tension quite a bit. It’s probably not the ‘right’ way to go about it, but if he’d started immediately dishing out cards around the place it could have inflamed tensions further.

 

[ARF]

I do find it slightly concerning that at least one of the officials hadn’t registered Holgate’s tackle as SFP.

The referee's view is blocked by a player running across. One AR is 50 yards away and the contact is blind-side of them, the other AR is 70 yards away, looking through a crowd of players, and focusing on the offside line. What, pray tell, do you suggest should have been done differently?

 

[SammyT5]

The referee's view is blocked by a player running across. One AR is 50 yards away and the contact is blind-side of them, the other AR is 70 yards away, looking through a crowd of players, and focusing on the offside line. What, pray tell, do you suggest should have been done differently?

So would you suggest that if there hadn’t been VAR that challenge would have justifiably resulted in a yellow card? I’ve not rewatched the incident but by the sounds of it maybe his position should have been better?

 

[ARF]

So would you suggest that if there hadn’t been VAR that challenge would have justifiably resulted in a yellow card?

No idea, entirely hypothetical. You'd have to ask Attwell, the two ARs and the fourth official.

I’ve not rewatched the incident but by the sounds of it maybe his position should have been better?

You could look at it and say he should have predicted that a player would run across at the exact same moment the player chose to dive in, obscuring his view of the foul. Without the luxury of hindsight, however, that might be a slightly difficult argument to back up.

 

[RustyRef]

So would you suggest that if there hadn’t been VAR that challenge would have justifiably resulted in a yellow card? I’ve not rewatched the incident but by the sounds of it maybe his position should have been better?

His position was pretty much expected for where the play was. You can't legislate for when a player runs across the front of you and blocks your view, it happens to every referee at every level.

I still don't subscribe to the argument that referees "go safe" with giving a caution instead of red, knowing that VAR will bail them out. VAR bails the game out, not the officials, they still get marked down for an incorrect KMD, they still have to sit in a room at the next training session where PGMOL take their decision apart on TV and tell everyone how terrible it was. So yes, without VAR I think it would have been a missed red card. The referee clearly didn't see it, one of the ARs must have but we don't know what kind of view they had.

 

[Paul_10]

His position was pretty much expected for where the play was. You can't legislate for when a player runs across the front of you and blocks your view, it happens to every referee at every level.

I still don't subscribe to the argument that referees "go safe" with giving a caution instead of red, knowing that VAR will bail them out. VAR bails the game out, not the officials, they still get marked down for an incorrect KMD, they still have to sit in a room at the next training session where PGMOL take their decision apart on TV and tell everyone how terrible it was. So yes, without VAR I think it would have been a missed red card. The referee clearly didn't see it, one of the ARs must have but we don't know what kind of view they had.

It's the theory we had since VAR has come in that some referees seemingly go for the safe yellow because it probably would be seen less of an embarrassing error than if they went red first then downgrade to a yellow(I don't think we have seen that happen once yet this season and it has not occured much in previous seasons either). It would be interesting see the stats since VAR has came in how many reds have been given on the field for SFP Vs a yellow being upgraded to a red. Also with all due respect, SG1 refs marks may aswell be irrelevant, there is no demotions, the top refs will always do the big games(especially the FIFA refs) and let's face it, I dont think Howard Webb will be too fussed if yellows get upgraded to reds via VAR aslong as it's the right decision in the end.

Having said all that, as I said in my previous post, I don't think Stuart Attwell went for the safe yellow, he clearly didnt see it properly as it was a delayed whistle so must of took advise from the AR. It would be interesting too see how he saw it if he had a clear view though.

 

[GraemeS]

His position was pretty much expected for where the play was. You can't legislate for when a player runs across the front of you and blocks your view, it happens to every referee at every level.

I still don't subscribe to the argument that referees "go safe" with giving a caution instead of red, knowing that VAR will bail them out. VAR bails the game out, not the officials, they still get marked down for an incorrect KMD, they still have to sit in a room at the next training session where PGMOL take their decision apart on TV and tell everyone how terrible it was. So yes, without VAR I think it would have been a missed red card. The referee clearly didn't see it, one of the ARs must have but we don't know what kind of view they had.

All true, but in a world where there are limited SG1 officials and no meaningful risk of demotion, it's also not difficult to imagine that no PL official is crying themselves to sleep over a nominal lower mark due to a missed RC.

In short, who cares?

 

[RustyRef]

All true, but in a world where there are limited SG1 officials and no meaningful risk of demotion, it's also not difficult to imagine that no PL official is crying themselves to sleep over a nominal lower mark due to a missed RC.

In short, who cares?

Depends if they want cup finals, play off finals, big games, etc. And with the ERDG gathering momentum the SG1 referees will be looking nervously over their shoulders, these up and coming referees need somewhere to go and I think it will be a matter of time before they start demoting SG1 officials to make room. Obviously employment law makes that difficult, so they will just throw in carrots, like go now and you'll have a role as a coach or mentor, don't go quietly and you'll be finished in refereeing.

 

[Kent Ref]

Depends if they want cup finals, play off finals, big games, etc. And with the ERDG gathering momentum the SG1 referees will be looking nervously over their shoulders, these up and coming referees need somewhere to go and I think it will be a matter of time before they start demoting SG1 officials to make room. Obviously employment law makes that difficult, so they will just throw in carrots, like go now and you'll have a role as a coach or mentor, don't go quietly and you'll be finished in refereeing.

i thought they got round employment law by giving out 1 year fixed contracts.

 

[SammyT5]

I don’t know if anyone has seen Ahmedhodzic’s interview after the game where he said that he didn’t think it should be a red card. He clearly wasn’t in possession of all the information and hadn’t seen a replay, but with all the media training these guys are given nowadays you’d think they’d be taught not to take a position until they’d actually seen something. Seems to be Sheffield United spouting nonsense every week at the moment.

 

[JamesL]

i thought they got round employment law by giving out 1 year fixed contracts.

Nope. As I understand it they are employed.

 

[GraemeS]

Depends if they want cup finals, play off finals, big games, etc. And with the ERDG gathering momentum the SG1 referees will be looking nervously over their shoulders, these up and coming referees need somewhere to go and I think it will be a matter of time before they start demoting SG1 officials to make room. Obviously employment law makes that difficult, so they will just throw in carrots, like go now and you'll have a role as a coach or mentor, don't go quietly and you'll be finished in refereeing.

Someone has to do the cup finals, it can't be someone who's done it before and they can't give all the cup finals, play off games and "big 6" games to the same refs. And it's also pretty clear that the FA has and continues to have their preferred refs - you can quote all the marks and good/bad games you like, MO and AT are now locked in as the go-to officials when a steady hand is needed and I don't see that changing any time soon. Yes they've earnt their place and deserve some grace for the odd bad game, but it still impedes the pathway to the very top for others.

Agree completely that in a fictional future world, it would be great if repeated poor marks resulting in a referee being "encouraged" to retire and make space. But in reality that hasn't happened - rather, referees like John Moss are hounded out by the media for what they consider poor decisions based on their understanding of poor positioning based on an appearance of poor fitness. That for me is the biggest factor currently pressurising PL referees decision making, and is exactly why I think they will err on the side of caution () when having to make an unsighted decision.

Regardless, it's still I think pretty naïve to think that VAR won't factor into a decision, particularly for this which is arguably the nastiest SFP I've seen all year. You're maybe unsighted to the exact point of impact, but will still have a pretty good idea of force and likely impact from the way the player ran in. Your other officials are unsighted and can't help, but there's a big roar from the crowd and you know you need to make a call. I think (hope) that even if you don't see the point of contact, most of our refereeing instinct will be screaming that it's a bad one and will be thinking red - but an experienced PL official has gone for yellow. I wonder why?

 

[Kent Ref]

Someone has to do the cup finals, it can't be someone who's done it before and they can't give all the cup finals, play off games and "big 6" games to the same refs. And it's also pretty clear that the FA has and continues to have their preferred refs - you can quote all the marks and good/bad games you like, MO and AT are now locked in as the go-to officials when a steady hand is needed and I don't see that changing any time soon. Yes they've earnt their place and deserve some grace for the odd bad game, but it still impedes the pathway to the very top for others.

Agree completely that in a fictional future world, it would be great if repeated poor marks resulting in a referee being "encouraged" to retire and make space. But in reality that hasn't happened - rather, referees like John Moss are hounded out by the media for what they consider poor decisions based on their understanding of poor positioning based on an appearance of poor fitness. That for me is the biggest factor currently pressurising PL referees decision making, and is exactly why I think they will err on the side of caution () when having to make an unsighted decision.

Regardless, it's still I think pretty naïve to think that VAR won't factor into a decision, particularly for this which is arguably the nastiest SFP I've seen all year. You're maybe unsighted to the exact point of impact, but will still have a pretty good idea of force and likely impact from the way the player ran in. Your other officials are unsighted and can't help, but there's a big roar from the crowd and you know you need to make a call. I think (hope) that even if you don't see the point of contact, most of our refereeing instinct will be screaming that it's a bad one and will be thinking red - but an experienced PL official has gone for yellow. I wonder why?

I have to say i agree with the theory of the PL refs showing a yellow and hoping for VAR intervention. It just happens so often.