A&H

Semi Automated Offside VAR from Club World Cup

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cwyeary

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If you don't know FIFA has been working on a technology that tracks the players including their limbs to help automate the offside process with var. Which means the VAR will no longer have to draw the lines it will all be done automatically and it is now being tested at the club World Cup with the goal of having it in use for the World Cup this fall.

Here's an example of it being used in today's game. What took me by surprise is how impressive the graphics package is. It's basically created a goal line technology style animation that shows exactly which part of the attackers body was offside and gives a nice side angle view. It should help cut down on those examples where we're trying to track the line coming from the defender shoulder and seeing where the attacker is and everyone being confused.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1489302273859723272
 
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cwyeary said:
If you don't know FIFA has been working on a technology that tracks the players including their limbs to help automate the offside process with var. Which means the VAR will no longer have to draw the lines it will all be done automatically and it is now being tested at the club World Cup with the goal of having it in use for the World Cup this fall.

Here's an example of it being used in today's game. What took me by surprise is how impressive the graphics package is. It's basically created a goal line technology style animation that shows exactly which part of the attackers body was offside and gives a nice side angle view. It should help cut down on those examples where we're trying to track the line coming from the defender shoulder and seeing where the attacker is and everyone being confused.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1489302273859723272
Click to expand...
Always said this could be done without a massive jump in technology. Also always said that this is the way forward for two reasons, 1) it has the potential to dramatically speed the process up 2) we accept computer graphics as 'truth' more readily than we accept broadcasters drawing lines on the screen (as we've experienced with GLT). So this has the potential to improve the VAR experience, albeit further rendering AR's to glorified ball boys

There are obviously problems with the concept though... namely, offiside is not black/white
 
you can't quite tell on that clip but is the goal ruled out almost instantly / does the AR actually flag before the goal is scored because the system has told him the player that received the ball was offside?

i think it looks superb and i really like it, as long as the decision is as close to in real time as it can be.

i do agree with @Anubis, with this tech there's almost no point in an AR...but i'm ok with that and i'd get rid and replace with 2 refs, one for each half and expand GLT to all boundary lines
 
Will it not only be used for checks? Ie on goals?
In which case it should only be used occasionally and not for all offside decisions. As I see there it's not instant and will still require a human to stop at the point of contact with the ball. So we haven't lost the trusty AR yet.
 
I also like this a lot better than current VAR for offside IF (big if) it is implemented correctly. There are still many things a computer can't do. Was there interference? We don't want this to stop play if the offside player didn't interfere. Rebound vs play the ball by defender is another factor.

Minor details matter very much but in principle it looks good.
 
es1 said:
you can't quite tell on that clip but is the goal ruled out almost instantly / does the AR actually flag before the goal is scored because the system has told him the player that received the ball was offside?

i think it looks superb and i really like it, as long as the decision is as close to in real time as it can be.

i do agree with @Anubis, with this tech there's almost no point in an AR...but i'm ok with that and i'd get rid and replace with 2 refs, one for each half and expand GLT to all boundary lines
Click to expand...

One ref each half, more in administration than judication,

Merely carrying out what the voice in head says, a messanger, no Ar for players to shout at.

Glt easy cover all lines, failing that, cover the whole goal line, with the ref on the sidelines.

In space of how many years went from 6 onfield at the top level to, basically already, 1.
 
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JamesL said:
Will it not only be used for checks? Ie on goals?
In which case it should only be used occasionally and not for all offside decisions. As I see there it's not instant and will still require a human to stop at the point of contact with the ball. So we haven't lost the trusty AR yet.
Click to expand...

I believe in this case the AR called offside after a delayed flag and the team did score. I believe the software also identifies the kick point automatically, but the avar is supposed to verify that it did get the correct kick point and that it appears to be identifying the proper people and parts of the body.
 
Whilst am on a coffee driven rant, the 4th man has long since outstayed its welcome, merely a sounding board, and, an object for managers to scream at
Why do managers attack the 4th? Because they crave attention.
Remove the 4th, you remove the jewel in the nile. Nobody to war dance at ( var dance), no dancing.
Cant have no 4th in case the benches fight? Simple, both benches take opposite sides on the pitch. Would take half a day to construct a tech area.
 
Anubis said:
Whilst am on a coffee driven rant, the 4th man has long since outstayed its welcome, merely a sounding board, and, an object for managers to scream at
Why do managers attack the 4th? Because they crave attention.
Remove the 4th, you remove the jewel in the nile. Nobody to war dance at ( var dance), no dancing.
Cant have no 4th in case the benches fight? Simple, both benches take opposite sides on the pitch. Would take half a day to construct a tech area.
Click to expand...
It would just move to the AR
 
Even if they get close to perfecting the system (and that's a very big IF), I still don't get how any Referee can be pro-VAR, when the trend is towards the demise of Assistant Refereeing (and ultimately Refereeing on the FOP)
On reflection (and it is without foresight), I preferred the game when officiating leant away from being a 'science', which in my view, is where sport sits

The only R's who I would understand being pro-VAR, are those who've just had their careers extended indefinitely, by sitting in a gallery forevermore
 
The long term effect on grassroots will be interesting - IF less/no opportunities to get to the very top, bound to be less referees starting out you would think?
 
PinnerPaul said:
The long term effect on grassroots will be interesting - IF less/no opportunities to get to the very top, bound to be less referees starting out you would think?
Click to expand...
I dunno--what percentage of those who start reffing really do because they are aiming for the PL? Where I can see a lot of impact is at levels below where the auto OS is used. Right now, we have ARs at those levels focused on being an AR with the dream of the PL (or whatever the top league is in their country). If that AR job doesn't exists (or becomes trivial), how many are going to do the hard work at those lower levels? And if they don't, what is going to happen to the AR quality and quantity at those levels? Will the top levels go back to the days when a referee is a referee is a referee and some days you whistle and some days you're on the line?
 
PinnerPaul said:
The long term effect on grassroots will be interesting - IF less/no opportunities to get to the very top, bound to be less referees starting out you would think?
Click to expand...

Or, you wont need to reach the top ability wise as we know it today, you wont be making decisions, merely, an administrator, opening opporrunities for all
 
If it speeds up VAR decisions then I'm all for it. I still think we are a long, long way from it replacing ARs though. AI can tell if a player is stood offside or not, but there is more to offside decisions than that and I don't see how it can tell if that offside player is interfering with play, interfering with an opponent, etc.

All technology, including AI, is only as good as the people operating it, and as we have seen time and time again with VAR that human element has caused a problem. Conversely, AI is only as good as the people developing it, and the mantra of rubbish in rubbish out very much applies. I work in an industry where tasks that a couple of years ago needed hundreds of people are now fully automated, but a skeleton staff still has to be maintained as every now and again the AI technology does some spectacularly stupid things, almost always due to human error by the developers / AI scientists.
 
cwyeary said:
Here's another one. No more margin of error. A cm offside is offside.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1489601018262392838
Click to expand...
Not sure about that. Any such tech would have a margin of error. But it SHOULD be built in. For example if the margin of error is 3 cm and its internal evaluation shows the gap as being 1cm (onside or offside) I would like the external display to show it as level. So if the external display is showing 1 cm offside, its internal evaluation would have been offside by a bigger margin.

In terms of impact to lower level AR uptake, tennis would be a good case study. Many top level tournaments don't use lines people for their main courts anymore.
 
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