The Ref Stop

Season is over ....

Russell Jones

Russell Jones

RefChat Addict
Final games of the 18/19 marking season now completed. Enjoyed (more or less) every second of it.

11 Marking Supply League middles, 5 Observations, Marks ranging from 73.0 to 75.5 with an average of 74.6

23 Contrib League lines. 10 at Step 3, 13 at Step 4. 9 Observations ranging from 72 to 78, average of exactly 75

All starts again on Saturday with another Step 3 line. Looking forward to it :)
 
The Ref Stop
Good stuff Russell, that average in my Supply League would be close to Band A (well it was at end of October). I finished my season a few weeks ago for middles, I think 13 games all in and a healthy average.

You're clearly a better lino than me (not that hard I suppose), my average isn't great but while I'm being marked down for not crabbing there's not much I can do. Style over substance seems to be the order of the day.

Anyway, good luck. Assuming clubs don't hate you do you think you're in with a shot?
 
Russell Jones said:
11 Marking Supply League middles, 5 Observations, Marks ranging from 73.0 to 75.5 with an average of 74.6

23 Contrib League lines. 10 at Step 3, 13 at Step 4. 9 Observations ranging from 72 to 78, average of exactly 75
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What does all this mean, relatively speaking!?
 
Depends on how the other refs have done, so a good mark in one pool might be poor in another.

Supply League refs (Level 4s) are observed 5 times per marking season. The average stated above is the average mark achieved across these 5 observations. Refs need to have done at least 10 middles and had 5 observations to qualify.

Referees are banded A-E for observers and club marks, so 20% of the total number of refs in each category. A-A, A-B normally have a very high chance of promotion, so the bandings matter.

For the lines, there's no minimum as it's just a ranking but whenever a Level 3 referee is observed the assistants are too hence you'll have more games and more observations as a lino. I'm not clear if the lino score really means anything at this stage.
 
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Monotone Whistle said:
Referees are banded A-E for observers and club marks
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For me, it's madness to still use club marks when you have at least five observations to rank a referee.

I can understand it at lower levels when you don't have enough resources to observer referees but not at higher levels when a referee has been evaluated by many 'expert'.

In a tough game when you have to send multiple players off you may end up with say 8.5 from an observer but very low club marks.

Do SG1 referees get club marks from PL clubs?
 
Referees that think that way generally come unstuck, The FA re very keen to point out that clubs expect referees to take action against any and every player when needed, and will mark down referees who don't apply Law. Club marks can be affected of course by a specific incident, but the idea is that it is consistent for every referee across a season as they cannot be observed on every game.

And that's the difference at SG1 or 2 level, they are observed on every game I think so the club marks wouldn't matter.
 
one said:
That's the whole point. 5 observations are more than enough to throw away club marks.
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Personally, whilst I see your point of view, I think the current balance is about right. Both Club marks and Observer marks matter ... but Observer marks matter more. At the end of the day, officials are paid by the clubs and if a referee is failing to make teams moderately happy overall over the course of 20+ 'observations' then something's not right. As an example, I know of one referee in my pool who is A for Observers and E for Clubs .. not promoting that referee until that situation changes is better than exposing them to the even higher club expectations at Step 3 / 4

I can honestly say that my experience is that my club mark banding has broadly tallied with my own personal reflection on my performance in those games. And an even greater emphasis on Observer marks would further increase the chance that one 'harsh' observation (or a simple bad day at the office!) could ruin an entire season.

Big Cat said:
What does all this mean, relatively speaking!?
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It means I've had a good / very good season (certainly much improved from last!) and that I won't know for certain until May whether I've done enough. Generally, an average in the middle of 75+ on my pool has historically more or less guaranteed an A banding. But, as they say in the financial ads, past performance is no guarantee of future success! Performance on the line is not part of the official L4 promotion criteria but a particularly good or bad AR reputation might make a small difference in marginal cases
 
Russell Jones said:
Personally, whilst I see your point of view, I think the current balance is about right. Both Club marks and Observer marks matter ... but Observer marks matter more. At the end of the day, officials are paid by the clubs and if a referee is failing to make teams moderately happy overall over the course of 20+ 'observations' then something's not right. As an example, I know of one referee in my pool who is A for Observers and E for Clubs .. not promoting that referee until that situation changes is better than exposing them to the even higher club expectations at Step 3 / 4

I can honestly say that my experience is that my club mark banding has broadly tallied with my own personal reflection on my performance in those games. And an even greater emphasis on Observer marks would further increase the chance that one 'harsh' observation (or a simple bad day at the office!) could ruin an entire season.



It means I've had a good / very good season (certainly much improved from last!) and that I won't know for certain until May whether I've done enough. Generally, an average in the middle of 75+ on my pool has historically more or less guaranteed an A banding. But, as they say in the financial ads, past performance is no guarantee of future success! Performance on the line is not part of the official L4 promotion criteria but a particularly good or bad AR reputation might make a small difference in marginal cases
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How do they band a ref in their first season following 5-4 successful promotion?
Are bandings a function of Club Marks or Observations? Or both
Just curious as to how it works
 
Big Cat said:
How do they band a ref in their first season following 5-4 successful promotion?
Are bandings a function of Club Marks or Observations? Or both
Just curious as to how it works
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Two different bandings. One for Observer marks, one for Club Marks. Those who do very well in both are in good shape for promotion. Very badly in both may lead to demotion. But greater priority to Observer marks in both cases.

Newly promoted L4s are treated exactly the same. They have historically tended to get given more games in Aug / Sep to 'catch them up' having missed out on the preceding Mar/Apr.. However that won't be an issue in the season just about to start as it will run from March 19 to May 20 in preparation for a permanent shift to the marking and playing seasons coinciding
 
Russell Jones said:
Two different bandings. One for Observer marks, one for Club Marks. Those who do very well in both are in good shape for promotion. Very badly in both may lead to demotion. But greater priority to Observer marks in both cases.

Newly promoted L4s are treated exactly the same. They have historically tended to get given more games in Aug / Sep to 'catch them up' having missed out on the preceding Mar/Apr.. However that won't be an issue in the season just about to start as it will run from March 19 to May 20 in preparation for a permanent shift to the marking and playing seasons coinciding
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Trust me to go for the longest (debut) promotion season ever recorded! 🤔
 
5 Wessex observations for me in my first full season. Average of 74.60 ranging from 73-77.

Happy enough with that seeing as my only 73 was my first ever Wessex game and first ever feedback on what I had learned on the course!
 
Russell Jones said:
Final games of the 18/19 marking season now completed. Enjoyed (more or less) every second of it.

11 Marking Supply League middles, 5 Observations, Marks ranging from 73.0 to 75.5 with an average of 74.6

23 Contrib League lines. 10 at Step 3, 13 at Step 4. 9 Observations ranging from 72 to 78, average of exactly 75

All starts again on Saturday with another Step 3 line. Looking forward to it :)
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74.7R 74.75AR.
Ranging 72.5 -76.5R 74-76AR.
Extra long marking season this year to align the marking and playing seasons.
Also starting with a step 3 line on Saturday.

All the best for the new season
 
one said:
For me, it's madness to still use club marks when you have at least five observations to rank a referee.

I can understand it at lower levels when you don't have enough resources to observer referees but not at higher levels when a referee has been evaluated by many 'expert'.

In a tough game when you have to send multiple players off you may end up with say 8.5 from an observer but very low club marks.

Do SG1 referees get club marks from PL clubs?
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8.5 for AOL/DM or MC is incredibly rare. Also the number of cards issued in a game is not necessarily an indication of how effective you are as a referee.
 
I can't confess to understanding it all but it sounds positive so congrats and good luck with your promotion. It's always positive to here from anyone who's enjoying and achieving at refereeing
 
Russell Jones said:
Two different bandings. One for Observer marks, one for Club Marks. Those who do very well in both are in good shape for promotion. Very badly in both may lead to demotion. But greater priority to Observer marks in both cases.

Newly promoted L4s are treated exactly the same. They have historically tended to get given more games in Aug / Sep to 'catch them up' having missed out on the preceding Mar/Apr.. However that won't be an issue in the season just about to start as it will run from March 19 to May 20 in preparation for a permanent shift to the marking and playing seasons coinciding
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Is it still the case that a newly promoted L4 will get one "free" season? So even if they end up in the bottom bands, they won't be demoted immediately?
 
GraemeS said:
Is it still the case that a newly promoted L4 will get one "free" season? So even if they end up in the bottom bands, they won't be demoted immediately?
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Yes. Not sure if that will change with the season alignment. My guess is it wont.
 
Brian Hamilton said:
8.5 for AOL/DM or MC is incredibly rare. Also the number of cards issued in a game is not necessarily an indication of how effective you are as a referee.
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Well aware of it Brian. Just used an extreme case for observer mark and a typical/common (but not necessarily) reason for low club marks to raise a point.

Russell Jones said:
Personally, whilst I see your point of view, I think the current balance is about right. Both Club marks and Observer marks matter ... but Observer marks matter more. At the end of the day, officials are paid by the clubs and if a referee is failing to make teams moderately happy overall over the course of 20+ 'observations' then something's not right. As an example, I know of one referee in my pool who is A for Observers and E for Clubs .. not promoting that referee until that situation changes is better than exposing them to the even higher club expectations at Step 3 / 4

I can honestly say that my experience is that my club mark banding has broadly tallied with my own personal reflection on my performance in those games. And an even greater emphasis on Observer marks would further increase the chance that one 'harsh' observation (or a simple bad day at the office!) could ruin an entire season.



It means I've had a good / very good season (certainly much improved from last!) and that I won't know for certain until May whether I've done enough. Generally, an average in the middle of 75+ on my pool has historically more or less guaranteed an A banding. But, as they say in the financial ads, past performance is no guarantee of future success! Performance on the line is not part of the official L4 promotion criteria but a particularly good or bad AR reputation might make a small difference in marginal cases
Click to expand...
Still, for me, too much conflict of interest impact for the referee and the club. I understand it can be managed and is in most cases, especially at higher levels, but why take the risk when you have a reliable independent source of information.

The example you gave with A and E bands should be ringing alarm bells. Either the observer are not marking correctly or the clubs are not. I know which one i'd rely on.

If "making teams happy" (even moderately) has any importance at all, then it should be one of the criteria in the observation manual and taken care of by the mark from observers. True that you are paid by the clubs, but the referee is not there to serve the clubs, s/he is there to serve the game.
 
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