Ross County vs Celtic

[CapnBloodbeard]

Credibility? What credibility do you seriously think the referee has after this decision?
The only way to restore credibility is by getting the correct decision. Not to mention that's also fairest.
It would be rare for the AR to want to intervene. I've stood on there quite a few times as an AR and felt confident something was a dive, but purely based on the manner of the fall. Never been in a position where I could clearly see daylight between defender and diver.

So that's the sort of thing I'm talking about. When the AR has the view and it's completely, inarguably, 110% a dive, he MUST speak to the referee. It's the AR's job to assist - and sometimes the only way to do that is get the ref's attention.

You want to be careful to ensure all players are well out of earshot - and if the ref disagrees then nothing has been lost.

We need to stop pretending that agreeing with the referee is the single most important thing that can possibly happen on the football pitch and find ways to actually improve our decision making capabilities.

 

[Ciley Myrus]

We are assuming the AR has not got involved. For all we know, the ref gives that and the AR shouts "yes pen"
If that is the case, then no actual face to face conversation is needed.
the AR could also have shouted "looks like a dive", which, is no use to the ref at all,
the AR, could have shouted "that is a dive" and indeed the ref has said to him "thanks but no thanks"

And the previous post about sorting it out in the room afterwards, no, decisions are sorted out on the park, when they can be rectified, telling the ref in the shower afterwards "by the way that was not a pen" is farcical.

My humble take on this one, is that the AR froze and offered nothing. Not a yes, or a no. Both the referee and the AR will be marked down for this incident.

 

[Mewcenary]

This is generally something I cover in my pre-match.

99% of the time I give a penalty, yet an AR may thing I am harsh / wrong to some degree, I don't expect them to get involved. It's my call / it's about angles / all the usual bits and pieces.

This is the other 1%.

The player reaction here is the real 'gimmee'. I couldn't see ANY attacking reaction calling for a penalty, but the defenders _immediately_ run at the referee claiming a dive. This is similar to obvious attacking handballs leading to a goal. The sheer number of players that immediately appeal is a strong indicator that something has happened.

That reaction is where I expect an AR to give me an 'out', raise their flag, and call me over. The phrasing I use is, "If I am clearly the only person in the ground and a five mile radius that thinks that is a penalty, and the reaction is clearly showing that, raise your flag.".

 

[Ciley Myrus]

^^^^^ which is ideal and textbook if the AR think you have made a mistake, on this occasion, we don't know, the AR might be (somehow) in complete agreement with the decision. ^^^^

 

[Ciley Myrus]

In some kind of defence of the AR, he will be 6 yards ahead of the ball here, so he wont be exact side on to the incident, as, 1 RC and 2 C players are standing next to him, the clip is not clear if they/1/2/all of them will be blocking his view, but the AR might even be simply looking along a line for offside (as he has moved to say, level with 6 yard box in line with the 2nd last defender, who is basically standing next to him) and if that's the case, then, he will have no chance of making a call on this as all he will be looking at is the back of the Celtic player who made the supposed foul. The AR probably wont be able to see the RC player and maybe not even, the ball itself

 

[GraemeS]

This is generally something I cover in my pre-match.

99% of the time I give a penalty, yet an AR may thing I am harsh / wrong to some degree, I don't expect them to get involved. It's my call / it's about angles / all the usual bits and pieces.

This is the other 1%.

The player reaction here is the real 'gimmee'. I couldn't see ANY attacking reaction calling for a penalty, but the defenders _immediately_ run at the referee claiming a dive. This is similar to obvious attacking handballs leading to a goal. The sheer number of players that immediately appeal is a strong indicator that something has happened.

That reaction is where I expect an AR to give me an 'out', raise their flag, and call me over. The phrasing I use is, "If I am clearly the only person in the ground and a five mile radius that thinks that is a penalty, and the reaction is clearly showing that, raise your flag.".

I like this approach, but like I said before, this isn't the brief I've been given as an AR so far - I've been clearly told that if the referee has made a quick decision, my job is to quietly get in position for the penalty, regardless of what I've seen.

If I was to get involved in an incident like the one above, I would be directly going against the instructions given to me by all referees I've assisted so far in my career. I don't really like that approach, but if I've been told pre-match not to get involved, my instinct is to not get involved.

 

[RustyRef]

Telling your assistants or 4th official not to get involved if you have made the decision is a very dangerous message as sometimes you will need their help. I would always say for penalties "if I've given if please don't get involved unless it is clear that I have dropped a massive clanger, am incorrect in law, or I'm the only idiot inside this ground that thinks it was a penalty". That only happened once, where I gave a penalty for handball and had an idea I'd got it wrong straight away with the player reaction. Assistant flagged me and told me I'd stuffed up, and I needed that flag to sell the change of decision. Had he kept it down and I'd gone to talk to him everyone would have said that I'd only done that because of the protests. He got me out of a massive hole there. An assistant also bailed me out when I sent the wrong player off for DOGSO, I still got heavily marked down for it, but at least I didn't incorrectly affect the outcome of the game.

As CapnBloodbeard says, credibility is getting the right decision, not how you get to it. If the 4th official had told Keith Stroud he was making an error in law he'd have been looking at a crap mark rather than a 28 day rest (I'm not saying he knew it was a mistake, just using an example). There was an occasion in the Conference a few years ago where the ball went through the side netting and Amy Fearn gave a goal kick rather than a goal. It took the 4th official to finally make the correct decision several minutes later, but that was a far more credible decision than incorrectly giving a goal kick for what should have been a goal. Messy and correct is far better than quick and incorrect.

Don't shut your colleagues out. Yes, you don't want them getting involved when you have given a marginal penalty that is down to matter of opinion. But you do want to them to bail you out if you drop an absolute clanger, so make sure your pre-match doesn't prevent them from doing this. Better they tell you on the pitch before you restart play than in the changing room after ..!!

 

[CapnBloodbeard]

I like this approach, but like I said before, this isn't the brief I've been given as an AR so far - I've been clearly told that if the referee has made a quick decision, my job is to quietly get in position for the penalty, regardless of what I've seen.
.

And as referees we need to be better than this, we really do. As a group we overstate our own importance and have this funny idea that somehow we're retaining credibility here and for some reason that's more important than the game. Which is nonsense, but that's conventional teaching.

 

[Sheffields Finest]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/39646717

As ever the football hierarchy see what i post on here and accept its generally sensible fare!!!

 

[Peter Grove]

Have seen this debate elsewhere but is the fourth official allowed to voice his opinion in a case like this or ever? And in Scotland?

It's only within their remit if the referee makes it within their remit, and I'm never in a million years asking a 4th official to get involved in on field decisions

Yes, the fourth official is allowed to voice his opinion and no, it's not only if the referee makes it his remit - it's the Laws of the game that specify it. Law 6 says that all the other match officials (except the reserve assistant referee) are to:

assist the referee with offences and infringements when they have a clearer view than the referee

If you don't allow the 4th official to be involved and they have a clearer view than you, you are going against the provisions of Law 6.

Plenty of examples of a 4th official giving a penalty that the referee and ARs haven't given? Really? Can you point me to one, as I don't remember ever seeing it.

I'm not sure about plenty of examples either, but there have been some. In addition to the one mentioned, there was a case I remember in a Spanish League match (Atletico vs Valencia) of a 4th official advising the referee of a penalty he had missed.

See the handball incident starting at around 37 seconds in.