A&H

Red card for a hiding sub

QuaverRef

I used to be indecisive but now i'm not so sure
Level 4 Referee
In my game yesterday, I red carded a sub for shouting at me ‘you’re a cheat, you’re a f’ing cheat’. However this happened while the ball was in play. Once the ball had gone out I stopped the game, looked over to the bench and saw him taking his shirt off and crouching behind a group of players. Deciding against walking around the group, I walked about 10 yards to the bench, showed the red and said to the manager ‘that’s for XXXX’.

The player has since messaged me on Facebook (groans) and said he’s going to appeal because
- I didn’t take his name (I know his name, I actually used to play football with him)
- I didn’t tell him why I’d sent him off
- I just flashed the card ‘randomly’

I’ve told the player I’m not going to discuss it and blocked him but I’m now questioning how I could have dealt with this differently. Any ideas?
 
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If you know the name there is no issue. I'm not sure what the appeals system is like in England so can't comment on that. I'd have called the player over to me though - else it can seem like a 'random' flashing.
 
If you know the name there is no issue. I'm not sure what the appeals system is like in England so can't comment on that. I'd have called the player over to me though - else it can seem like a 'random' flashing.
That seems like a fair and obvious point actually.
 
That seems like a fair and obvious point actually.

I suspect everyone has at some point been accused (rightly or wrongly) of trying to be 'big-time' on the pitch. Don't create the rod for your own back by cautioning like a PL ref. If you know the name its even easier. You can stand at the touchline, sideways on to the pitch and say 'Chris (eg.) come here.' so that people hear you. Then 'I heard that, you know it was stupid, you know what this is for' - show the red etc.

Did your actions (before the FB message) make you feel in control? Did they help your match control?
 
I suspect everyone has at some point been accused (rightly or wrongly) of trying to be 'big-time' on the pitch. Don't create the rod for your own back by cautioning like a PL ref. If you know the name its even easier. You can stand at the touchline, sideways on to the pitch and say 'Chris (eg.) come here.' so that people hear you. Then 'I heard that, you know it was stupid, you know what this is for' - show the red etc.

Did your actions (before the FB message) make you feel in control? Did they help your match control?
It didn’t have any impact either way in all honesty. It wasn’t a heated game in anyway but he made those comments following a decision not to award a penalty for his team. Nobody questioned the decision as they all heard it and nobody mentioned it to me after. So it was all ok in a match control respect.
 
In my game yesterday, I red carded a sub for shouting at me ‘you’re a cheat, you’re a f’ing cheat’. However this happened while the ball was in play. Once the ball had gone out I stopped the game, looked over to the bench and saw him taking his shirt off and crouching behind a group of players. Deciding against walking around the group, I walked about 10 yards to the bench, showed the red and said to the manager ‘that’s for XXXX’.

The player has since messaged me on Facebook (groans) and said he’s going to appeal because
- I didn’t take his name (I know his name, I actually used to play football with him)
- I didn’t tell him why I’d sent him off
- I just flashed the card ‘randomly’

I’ve told the player I’m not going to discuss it and blocked him but I’m now questioning how I could have dealt with this differently. Any ideas?
I fancy an extraordinary report as well, myself. See how the FA feel about players contacting refs in that manner.
You haven't a case to answer mate.
As others have said its best practise to take the players name etc and deal with it.
Also by the sounds of it you left him on the bench? A red carded player should leave the immediate vicinity (not tryi g to teach you to suck eggs) so I'd be making sure that happened as well.
 
If you were unable to identify him, would it not then have been a RC for the manager?
(“Team Officials Where an offence is committed and the offender cannot be identified, the senior Team coach present in the technical area will receive the sanction”)

So if he is dodging the card, he’s dropping his manager in it.

(I hesitate slightly, as the LOTG talk of team official, not sure if this applies to subs on the bench)
 
We don't take names so won't comment on that. The way you did it is totally acceptable where I am. I also note that we teach for the referees not to enter the technical area in such cases. Stay in the FOP. Making sure player leaves the vicinity of technical area the FOP is part of the LOTG process. It should happen before restart and would make it clear to everyone which player/sub was sent off.

Telling you he is appealing it does not help his appeal process. Why do you think he messaged you to say he is appealing it? Do not respond to Facebook messages, even to say you will not discuss it. Take a screenshot or copy his entire message and include it in a extraordinary / incident report.
 
So, in my short-lived experience, I had a player dispute a YC based on wrong identity
I'd dished out something like 15 sanctions that weekend
When asked by the CFA if I could specifically remember taking this players name as it was given to me, honestly, 'I couldn't recall the verbal exchange'.
So the YC was rescinded. I had followed procedure, I just couldn't remember the player saying, 'my name is Alan Shearer' (or whatever)
Based on that experience with the CFA, I think the player will have the dismissal rescinded based on uncertainty over identity caused by not following the correct procedure. I understand why you @QuaverRef issued the sanction as stated, but I'd expect it to be overturned if the player knows what to say at the hearing
 
For a mistaken identity claim, it doesn't go to a hearing - they must provide written evidence from both the player who wrongly received the caution/dismissal, and written evidence from the player who should have received the caution/dismissal, i.e. the card wouldn't simply be rescinded, it would be transferred to the guilty party.

@QuaverRef I assume this was in a friendly? If so, when the player realises that for a red card in a friendly it'll only cost him £15 and mean suspension for the team's next friendly match he'll probably stop griping.

Personally I probably wouldn't feel the need to report the player for contacting you on FB unless he had been abusive, or very persistent.
 
For a mistaken identity claim, it doesn't go to a hearing - they must provide written evidence from both the player who wrongly received the caution/dismissal, and written evidence from the player who should have received the caution/dismissal, i.e. the card wouldn't simply be rescinded, it would be transferred to the guilty party.

@QuaverRef I assume this was in a friendly? If so, when the player realises that for a red card in a friendly it'll only cost him £15 and mean suspension for the team's next friendly match he'll probably stop griping.

Personally I probably wouldn't feel the need to report the player for contacting you on FB unless he had been abusive, or very persistent.
You are no doubt right, but none of that happened when my caution was rescinded. The CFA just called me and put me on the spot
 
@QuaverRef - a couple of learning points for you

1. In future, make you the player is aware that you are disclipining him. Best way, get the manager over and say what you are doing. It is safest, as if there is a dispute - he gets the penalty for being the most senior person.

2. Do you know the players club? If you do, I would be tempted to lets his club secretary knows. While may be able to do an extraordinary report, the club may well be interested as if an EO is made it lands on his desk......
 
@QuaverRef - a couple of learning points for you

1. In future, make you the player is aware that you are disclipining him. Best way, get the manager over and say what you are doing. It is safest, as if there is a dispute - he gets the penalty for being the most senior person.

2. Do you know the players club? If you do, I would be tempted to lets his club secretary knows. While may be able to do an extraordinary report, the club may well be interested as if an EO is made it lands on his desk......
I do know the club and the secretary is a good friend of mine luckily. He gave me a call yesterday asking what happened, and when I explained he had no issue at all. I’ve also since been told the player isn’t going to attempt appeal, probably helped by the fact I mentioned to the secretary I have messages from the player which I’d have no choice but to hand to the FA if I were questioned

thank you for the advice as well. Taken on board
 
If you were unable to identify him, would it not then have been a RC for the manager?
(“Team Officials Where an offence is committed and the offender cannot be identified, the senior Team coach present in the technical area will receive the sanction”)

So if he is dodging the card, he’s dropping his manager in it.

(I hesitate slightly, as the LOTG talk of team official, not sure if this applies to subs on the bench)
For clarity (as I see this as quite likely to happen), if you can't ID the player / sub / official; then it's the most senior (ie Manager) who would get the RED (at which point I'd expect him to offer up the offender).
 
For clarity (as I see this as quite likely to happen), if you can't ID the player / sub / official; then it's the most senior (ie Manager) who would get the RED (at which point I'd expect him to offer up the offender).
I'd argue that being unable to identify someone is different from being able to clearly identify the back of their head as they disappear behind a dugout!

So if we take that to it's tenuous conclusion, what you should do is tell the manager "I need to speak to [Dave/number 7/tall blonde long-haired sub] who I just saw hide behind the dugout". If he goes and fetches him then great, if he refuses then you caution him, ask again and if necessary, caution again.
 
I had a highly amusing one in pre season last year.

Player on pitch got injured and the manager was the nominated first aider. I called him on to the FOP to administer treatment. Whilst he was doing that I received dissent from his technical area. When I went over no one would admit to it, so was faced with the situation of having to book the manager once he came back from treating his injured player!

Fortunately as he returned and learnt the news the offending individual owned up and took the card.
 
I had a highly amusing one in pre season last year.

Player on pitch got injured and the manager was the nominated first aider. I called him on to the FOP to administer treatment. Whilst he was doing that I received dissent from his technical area. When I went over no one would admit to it, so was faced with the situation of having to book the manager once he came back from treating his injured player!

Fortunately as he returned and learnt the news the offending individual owned up and took the card.

I don't think that would go to the manager, as it goes to the "senior team coach present in the technical area." Since he wasn't present in the technical area at the time of the misconduct, I think it should have gone to the senior coach who was in the TA at the time.
 
I don't think that would go to the manager, as it goes to the "senior team coach present in the technical area." Since he wasn't present in the technical area at the time of the misconduct, I think it should have gone to the senior coach who was in the TA at the time.

Not sure about that. But the threat of it was enough in this case!
 
Not sure about that. But the threat of it was enough in this case!

As it will almost always be, which is why it doesn't really matter. But the language is pretty clear if you had to give it to someone other than the miscreant--and it makes sense, as the senior coach actually in the TA, is the one who would be able to control the TA, not the person not present.
 
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