Random question regarding refereeing in the Armed Forces

[zarathustra]

I stuck this question in here as it's completely random and occured to me at 1am this morning (insomnia is for winners).

I was in the Army for 12 years, but didn't take up the whistle until after I'd left. And I was wondering do referees in the Armed Forces experience particular issues when officiating a services game that wouldn't crop up in a "normal" Sunday or Saturday league match?

This was prompted as I remember a conversation with a colleague when I was serving (around 2010ish), who is/was a qualified ref. He would generally officiate games that our establishment's team played at home. And on one occasion he got AGAI'd* for apparently choppsing off to a senior nco.



* For those that aren't aware AGAI 69 is the militaries discipline procdedure, and can take the form of minor and major sanctions. And example would be if you turned up late for a parade then you would have to "show" to the duty officer at a set time. Normally after work to mess people about.

 

[DB]

I've not had any issues. Some people of a higher rank don't like to admit they are wrong when they are, they certainly don't like being told that they're wrong by someone "beneath" them. Rank doesn't come into it when I officiate. That's the way it should be.

I ref'd a game at Dartmouth not long ago between the base and the Submarine Service. Baring in mind the Dartmouth team are made up of both British and National commisioned officers, you wouldn't hear me say "Sir" at all before, during or after the game. Unless of course they are in rig OR there is something service related to discuss, which there usually isn't.

Personally, I sometimes find the Service games a bit of a ballache compared to your average Saturday game, mainly due to attitudes. A stern, but fair approach from the off usually sets the mood and after a few little niggles, the game tends to go the way I plan. Problem free and a happy, fair game for all.

 

[zarathustra]

I've not had any issues. Some people of a higher rank don't like to admit they are wrong when they are, they certainly don't like being told that they're wrong by someone "beneath" them. Rank doesn't come into it when I officiate. That's the way it should be.

I ref'd a game at Dartmouth not long ago between the base and the Submarine Service. Baring in mind the Dartmouth team are made up of both British and National commisioned officers, you wouldn't hear me say "Sir" at all before, during or after the game. Unless of course they are in rig OR there is something service related to discuss, which there usually isn't.

Personally, I sometimes find the Service games a bit of a ballache compared to your average Saturday game, mainly due to attitudes. A stern, but fair approach from the off usually sets the mood and after a few little niggles, the game tends to go the way I plan. Problem free and a happy, fair game for all.

Thanks, I guess you'd get less of the Sunday morning style dissent or offinabus, but dealing with people who out rank you was one of the things I was wondering about.

I guess if you officiate a match between two teams you don't know then it wouldn't bee too bad. But if I were still serving and officiated a match for our Bn team, then I think there would be a very small worry that someone would be displeased with a decision I make, and then take it upon themselves to spring out a last minute weekend barrack guard or similar.

 

[Kes]

Rank doesn't and shouldn't ever come into it. Certainly never been an issue in the matches I do.

On a slightly different subject, refereeing both civvy and army as I do, I'm often asked, particularly by civvy referees, if the "on field discipline" of the army matches is better than that of the civvy games I do. Most are really shocked when I give my honest answer which is "generally, no".
The matches where all the players are constantly moaning or appealing or questioning every other decision given always seem to be the military ones oddly enough. Foul tackles and dissent are all about even with their civilian counterparts. I even find the general level of "sportsmanship" to be slightly more evident in civvy matches than I do army ones I'm almost ashamed to say. I have my own personal theory as to why this is but that's for another time.

 

[Kes]

But if I were still serving and officiated a match for our Bn team, then I think there would be a very small worry that someone would be displeased with a decision I make, and then take it upon themselves to spring out a last minute weekend barrack guard or similar.

In truth mate, you'd very unlikely be appointed to referee your own unit. For that very reason I'm guessing.

 

[DB]

At Culdrose we often officiate our own unit - It's a big trek otherwise. That said, I still have to travel to Plymouth, Portsmouth etc from Culdrose.

Suprisingly Kes, You're right. I find attitudes to be generally worse in military football. Always someone with an opinion. Often in Civvy street their is a local derby, a top table clash etc. In the forces, you have that but you also have trade wars (as I like to call them). Aircraft engineers vs Marine Engineers, both think they are better than eachother (Trade example, not neccessarily true)... A Type 23 ship vs a Type 45 ship, something like that. There are extra factors involved for the rivalries...

All in all, I don't mind reffing in service. It gets me out of the office for a day

 

[zarathustra]

In truth mate, you'd very unlikely be appointed to referee your own unit. For that very reason I'm guessing.

That makes sense to be honest. I don't know the ins and outs of why my mate was AGAI'd but I imagine he just spoke to someone who outranked him in the wrong tone of voice, rather than out and out chopsing off (if that makes sense).

If I remember correctly it cost him a couple of extra duties.

 

[DB]

If this was in a game, the higher ranked person would be in the wrong. I certainly wouldn't discipline anyone that spoke to me like rubbish on the field. The reason being it is football. If rank played a part in football, the likes of Dartmouth, Sandhurst etc would be the top teams in the Navy and Army... But they aren't Get what I mean?

I never go out in a game and call anybody by rank, regardless of whether I know the rank they hold or not.

 

[zarathustra]

Incidentally we were posted to RMAS at the time, where the team is predominantly made up of sncos

 

[Kes]

Incidentally we were posted to RMAS at the time, where the team is predominantly made up of sncos

I would guess your mate did his "chopsing" outside the remit of the football match mate. Military rank is "removed" for the purposes of sport or at least it always has been throughout my experience. The players are just a list of numbers for me when I take the field.

I only ever once encountered a situation where a player came up to me at half time asking to discuss a decision of mine. He knew that I would have seen the team sheet and clocked "who" he was (in their unit - not mine). He never said as much but his attitude toward me (even though I was only one rank beneath him and I was the referee) suggested that he thought his opinion should carry extra weight as opposed to mine by virtue of that fact. I put him in his place. He didn't like it but conceded and jogged away muttering.

RSMs - I've shat em!!

 

[zarathustra]

I would guess your mate did his "chopsing" outside the remit of the football match mate. Military rank is "removed" for the purposes of sport or at least it always has been throughout my experience. The players are just a list of numbers for me when I take the field.

I only ever once encountered a situation where a player came up to me at half time asking to discuss a decision of mine. He knew that I would have seen the team sheet and clocked "who" he was (in their unit - not mine). He never said as much but his attitude toward me (even though I was only one rank beneath him and I was the referee) suggested that he thought his opinion should carry extra weight as opposed to mine by virtue of that fact. I put him in his place. He didn't like it but conceded and jogged away muttering.

RSMs - I've shat em!!

You could be right there, he was a bit gobby at times.