QPR v Sunderland

[socal lurker]

Problem here, SL, is there isn't any procedure that makes up for the fact that none of the 3 possible 'offside' players were in fact offside!

Gotcha--I think I misread @ladbroke8745 's post, which I thought was showing a legitimate OS call, but I guess that was a defender playing the ball before the OS player got it.

Mistakes get made. When they happen, the point for me isn't to beat up on the R/AR who made them, but to try to understand how they happen. I don't understand the mistake here. (Though it is far, far less egregious than the one I posted about on the own goal being disallowed in another thread.)

 

[ladbroke8745]

Gotcha--I think I misread @ladbroke8745 's post, which I thought was showing a legitimate OS call, but I guess that was a defender playing the ball before the OS player got it.

Mistakes get made. When they happen, the point for me isn't to beat up on the R/AR who made them, but to try to understand how they happen. I don't understand the mistake here. (Though it is far, far less egregious than the one I posted about on the own goal being disallowed in another thread.)

I wasn't suggesting he was definitely offside, sorry for confusion.
Was just giving another phase that may have got the officials thinking and talking. Because of the play that was still attacking/playing out they may have delayed the conversation until the ball went out (or in this case went in).
They delayed the call to ensure it was right.
Though, in my opinion, they still got it wrong.

 

[RustyRef]

Am looking for a strong aware referee here to award a goal.

one of the downsides to learning your trade with CARs, you dont always fully digest offside, you get in the black and white habit of, offsiide is my Ars,

referee as if you dont have ARs, and at the very least these two have a chat, hopefully leading to the award of a goal.

simply going, his fags up, thats offside, Is lame

There is no way a referee at that level is overruling an AR on offside unless it is very blatant, way more blatant than this. It happened very quickly, the referee wouldn't be looking for offside, he just would not get involved.

 

[Anubis]

There is no way a referee at that level is overruling an AR on offside unless it is very blatant, way more blatant than this. It happened very quickly, the referee wouldn't be looking for offside, he just would not get involved.

Correct.
And its cost the refereeing team a kmi.

 

[es1]

Looks about as clear an example as I've ever seen for handball regardless

 

[socal lurker]

Correct.
And its cost the refereeing team a kmi.

At this level one of the key things that elite ARs do is mean that, for the most part, Rs don't have to worry about OS. And they certainly aren't spending any energy thinking about OSP--the R has plenty to be thinking about on this play. I think it is safe to say you will never see an R overrule on OSP at this level (unless there is something weird going on, like a player lying down on the field behind play that the AR doesn't notice). Where you will see overrules is things that don't involve OSP--the R sees the play by the defender that the AR can't see, or the R disagrees on whether there was adequate involvement.

 

[Anubis]

At this level one of the key things that elite ARs do is mean that, for the most part, Rs don't have to worry about OS. And they certainly aren't spending any energy thinking about OSP--the R has plenty to be thinking about on this play. I think it is safe to say you will never see an R overrule on OSP at this level (unless there is something weird going on, like a player lying down on the field behind play that the AR doesn't notice). Where you will see overrules is things that don't involve OSP--the R sees the play by the defender that the AR can't see, or the R disagrees on whether there was adequate involvement.

Dsagree. The flag/ar by defintion has one purpose here

to alert the referee to a player offside who may be penalised. Nothing stops until the referee blows his whistle.

basics. granted, 99/100 the ref goes with it.

a referee aware of what was going on in that clip, and not simply absolving himself of it and landing it on his colleague, gets the correct call.

 

[RustyRef]

Correct.
And its cost the refereeing team a kmi.

No it didn't, it has just cost the AR an incorrect KMI. The referee would only be penalised if something was incorrect in law, for example the final pass had actually been played by a defender and the referee could realistically be expected to spot that. They will never be penalised for their AR incorrectly judging the position of attacking and defending players, which is what happened here.

 

[JamesL]

a referee aware of what was going on in that clip, and not simply absolving himself of it and landing it on his colleague, gets the correct call.

I can't imagine any referee being in any credible enough position to over rule the AR here.
AR says he was offside, he was offside. I'm not arguing with him here.

 

[Anubis]

No it didn't, it has just cost the AR an incorrect KMI. The referee would only be penalised if something was incorrect in law, for example the final pass had actually been played by a defender and the referee could realistically be expected to spot that. They will never be penalised for their AR incorrectly judging the position of attacking and defending players, which is what happened here.

Offside relies on communication at that level, esp when active/inactive, proximity etc is a consideration.
" ref dykes is off"
" ok give it"
or
"leave it"

communication, team effort.


worked with one elite for years who you had to feed the offside down the comms and he would say yes or no first

fact remains, that referee could have reached the correct call here
for whatever reason, weakness, unawareness, or simply passing the buck, he never.

another way to look at it, operating alone, I be amazed if anyone gives offside

we now have the correct call.

 

[JamesL]

Looks about as clear an example as I've ever seen for handball regardless

Hmmm not sure on that "as clear an example" bit. I've looked at it in as slow mo and stopped as close and the point of contact is still unclear. Probably spent longer than there is any point to anyhow. I'm leaning towards the upper arm in the no handball zone but it's close.

 

[JamesL]

Offside relies on communication at that level, esp when active/inactive, proximity etc is a consideration.
" ref dykes is off"
" ok give it"
or
"leave it"

communication, team effort.


worked with one elite for years who you had to feed the offside down the comms and he would say yes or no first

fact remains, that referee could have reached the correct call here
for whatever reason, weakness, unawareness, or simply passing the buck, he never.

another way to look at it, operating alone, I be amazed if anyone gives offside

we now have the correct call.

But did he ever say, no he isn't even in an offside position.
The interference with play is not up for debate here, player scored a goal. The OSP is the debate. R is noway credible to make that call and if be very surprised any ref would be here.

 

[RustyRef]

Offside relies on communication at that level, esp when active/inactive, proximity etc is a consideration.
" ref dykes is off"
" ok give it"
or
"leave it"

communication, team effort.


worked with one elite for years who you had to feed the offside down the comms and he would say yes or no first

fact remains, that referee could have reached the correct call here
for whatever reason, weakness, unawareness, or simply passing the buck, he never.

another way to look at it, operating alone, I be amazed if anyone gives offside

we now have the correct call.

But no referee at any level is going to think their AR is wrong when he says Dykes is offside. The referee won't be looking at the point the ball is played, and they won't be looking for offside as it simply isn't their call to make. Plus if they overrule on AR on offside and it turns out they themselves are wrong they will be hung out to dry.

 

[Anubis]

But no referee at any level is going to think their AR is wrong when he says Dykes is offside. The referee won't be looking at the point the ball is played, and they won't be looking for offside as it simply isn't their call to make. Plus if they overrule on AR on offside and it turns out they themselves are wrong they will be hung out to dry.

ok i leave it there.
other than say, the referee is perfectly placed to see Dykes involvement
The ref indeed might not see who kicks it and when, but they can survey whats in front of them, how close players are, is it deliberate play etc

example, the Nations Cup one the other week, had the AR flagged, Taylor would have played on. We dont even know if the Ar shouted. off, and Taylor said no

anyways, i made my point on it, and can understand others

 

[Big Cat]

Looks about as clear an example as I've ever seen for handball regardless

Splendid goalkeeping. KS rides again !!
Nothing will get him demoted

 

[ben_white161]

Could it be from the original cross? Looks marginal without being in line but his leg is definitely off/in line when the ball is played.

 

[JamesL]

Could it be from the original cross? Looks marginal without being in line but his leg is definitely off/in line when the ball is played.

Could be still an incorrect decision. The player hasn't played the ball yet in your picture...


The goal area boundary line is helpful here.
I can't get the precise frame but the picture doesn't change much and I think I've got the same moment anyway and the Sunderland players right leg is on the boundary line of GA and the QPr player is a good yard off it.

I'd like to say an AR of this level isn't getting that wrong but as we know what happens next I'm not sure I can say that...

 

[RefIADad]

Looks about as clear an example as I've ever seen for handball regardless

I'm not so sure about that. Watching the initial video, I thought the ball hit very near the top of the shoulder. If that's the case, that's not handling as specifically stated in the Laws. However, I took one look at it from a not-so-great angle on the video.

 

[es1]

I'm not so sure about that. Watching the initial video, I thought the ball hit very near the top of the shoulder. If that's the case, that's not handling as specifically stated in the Laws. However, I took one look at it from a not-so-great angle on the video.

i think it's a cracking save, he's spread his arms and its hit about half way between the elbow and the shoulder

 

[PinnerPaul]

Thanks everyone.

The timing of the flag is the big mystery here.

Its late if it is for Austin (Most likely), very very late if its for Adomah and really not at all credible if its for Dykes - the last one would also be wrong in law as he hasn't played the ball or prevented an opponent....etc etc