The Ref Stop

Positioning first half compared to second half..

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The one I had on Sunday really pissed me off, ball gets played forward I glance over to Lino the flag stays down! Two-three seconds later shouts from bench offside ref offside I look over and Lino has flag up!

I gave the offside stopped play ran over to Lino and bench I explained I’d looked over on initial through ball & you had flag down, the whole bench said no ref he had it in the air, they all said it & so did he!

I believe them 100% but it proves 100% that he was onside because my head turned the split second the ball was received by the attacker & the flag was down, he must have flagged a second or two after I’d looked which was the wrong call, fortunately he was spot on after that & it was a decent game CAR’s wise.
 
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The Ref Stop
It doesn't prove at all that he was onside....it just proves that he flagged after you looked. Why are you so certain it was the wrong call?
Bear in mind that there's a decision making process. You know how players always shout before you've decided to blow the whistle? Because you have a lot more you need to process to make that decision than players do. CAR's being unfamiliar with the role will also have a lot more to process. NAR's have the benefit that a lot of the thinking is automatic - and they also know how important it is to be quick once a decision has to be made. CAR's not only don't share the same sentiment of that importance, but they have the thought process of trying to remember what to do once they think a player is off!! So no surprise that CAR's can be a bit slow to flag.
Sometimes it helps to have a 2nd glance a second or two later, if you can afford it.
 
It doesn't prove at all that he was onside....it just proves that he flagged after you looked. Why are you so certain it was the wrong call?
Bear in mind that there's a decision making process. You know how players always shout before you've decided to blow the whistle? Because you have a lot more you need to process to make that decision than players do. CAR's being unfamiliar with the role will also have a lot more to process. NAR's have the benefit that a lot of the thinking is automatic - and they also know how important it is to be quick once a decision has to be made. CAR's not only don't share the same sentiment of that importance, but they have the thought process of trying to remember what to do once they think a player is off!! So no surprise that CAR's can be a bit slow to flag.
Sometimes it helps to have a 2nd glance a second or two later, if you can afford it.

They have one job really - offside = raise flag.. I’m not sure what sort of thought process you think that requires or how long it should take but I’d expect a 10yr old to be able to action it correctly and promptly.

I had my eyes on attacker as he received ball I then turn to right and see flag down, it looked onside to me anyway, then must have been atleast 2 -3 later I get a shout from defence & sidelines that he’s offside. (I was even gonna play on but as it was first 5 mins of game I blew).

In fairness it was the only Lino issue in the whole game, maybe your right maybe I’m being to hard on the car but if I can run follow the play watch a player receive ball & turn to the lino all in one motion then put eyes back on play I just find it hard to understand why a car can’t flag quickly and promptly.
 
Did you have your eyes on the attacker as the ball was kicked though? :)

Uh-oh - you just disputed cognition with a psychology student!! :P

The human brain is like a computer, and it prioritises information based on what it thinks is important, among other things. Do you remember your first games in the middle or on the line? How hard did you have to think about basic things - like which hand to hold the flag in? What about making decisions as an AR? Or even as a ref? Were you a bit slower for some decisions as you were trying to remember if it's a foul, if it's a DFK or IFK, what law 12 says, which team is going which way, and how else you should react?
As an AR, most of the mechanics - the footwork, the flagwork, moving the flag from hand to hand, the checking of the 2nd last defender, the scanning of the field, and considering the issues of teamwork with the referee - all of these require conscious thought. Valuable processing space. If you're spending processing power on these things than it slows down your decision making processes. If you're distracted by thinking about your role as an AR you're not used to, the position you should be in, whether you should be side-on or facing the field, which hand to raise the flag in ,whether you've 'waited and seen' correctly, and whether you should flag or has the ref seen it?, then these are all distracting from your actual decision making processes. You'll still make the decision, but not as fast. And with so many distractions, you're more likely to get it wrong given that, as an AR, incredibly fast processing of multiple sources of different types of information is crucial to the role
As you get more experienced, a lot of that starts happening automatically. So things like which hand to hold the flag or raise it? That's starting to happen automatically, freeing up a bit more processing power.

What that means is when you have somebody who isn't used to being an AR, don't expect their decisions to be as fast as a neutral AR. It's on you, as the referee, to realise this and adapt. They're not only in an unfamiliar role but it's a role that they're not as highly engaged with as you are as refereeing. As a ref in the middle you are multitasking, but you learn that skill and your mind adapts to thinking in that fashion. You can successfully think about where the ball is going, where the attacker is, where his teammates are, where the defenders are, whether that defender looks like he's going to break his kneecaps, whether the attacker handled it as he stopped it, where you need to run to because X will happen, actually, let's run over there instead because I think Y will happen, but lets hold back slightly because there's a fair chance Z will happen, as well as what your AR is doing. You can pretty successfully think about that all at once because a lot of it becomes fairly reflexive thinking and your mind is prioritising the tasks like your computer's CPU is prioritising requests. Your poor club AR? Not only is he not used to the role, but he doesn't know all of that extra stuff, he only has a vague idea that he has a job to do, doesn't really know what the rules are but he's trying to think about them and the job and he doesn't want to be there and he's not trying to better himself - meaning literally everything he does is requiring conscious, deliberate though. AND because he's not thinking like a referee he's also distracted by watching the game!

There are stacks of psychology studies conducted on the effects of distractor tasks and familiarity on decision making processes.

Even with neutral AR's, they may not be responding as fast as you're looking. Especially when it's something like a lone striker receiving the ball unchallanged and it's not critical when you take your eyes off play, maybe look a moment later. Give your AR an extra moment or two.

Heck, sometimes as a ref you actually need to think for a moment before you make a decision. Sometimes as an AR it's not a bad thing to take a moment on the really close offsides. Maybe. Could probably start a whole other discussion on whether your reflexive decisions as an AR can lead you astray!
 
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They have one job really - offside = raise flag.. I’m not sure what sort of thought process you think that requires or how long it should take but I’d expect a 10yr old to be able to action it correctly and promptly.

I had my eyes on attacker as he received ball I then turn to right and see flag down, it looked onside to me anyway, then must have been atleast 2 -3 later I get a shout from defence & sidelines that he’s offside. (I was even gonna play on but as it was first 5 mins of game I blew).

In fairness it was the only Lino issue in the whole game, maybe your right maybe I’m being to hard on the car but if I can run follow the play watch a player receive ball & turn to the lino all in one motion then put eyes back on play I just find it hard to understand why a car can’t flag quickly and promptly.
At some point in your career you will be required to be an AR. You'll understand it better.

One thing i always ask of my assistants is that tbey take their time. I would rather a late flag that is correct than quick flag that is incorrect.
 
Did you have your eyes on the attacker as the ball was kicked though? :)

Uh-oh - you just disputed cognition with a psychology student!! :p

The human brain is like a computer, and it prioritises information based on what it thinks is important, among other things. Do you remember your first games in the middle or on the line? How hard did you have to think about basic things - like which hand to hold the flag in? What about making decisions as an AR? Or even as a ref? Were you a bit slower for some decisions as you were trying to remember if it's a foul, if it's a DFK or IFK, what law 12 says, which team is going which way, and how else you should react?
As an AR, most of the mechanics - the footwork, the flagwork, moving the flag from hand to hand, the checking of the 2nd last defender, the scanning of the field, and considering the issues of teamwork with the referee - all of these require conscious thought. Valuable processing space. If you're spending processing power on these things than it slows down your decision making processes. If you're distracted by thinking about your role as an AR you're not used to, the position you should be in, whether you should be side-on or facing the field, which hand to raise the flag in ,whether you've 'waited and seen' correctly, and whether you should flag or has the ref seen it?, then these are all distracting from your actual decision making processes. You'll still make the decision, but not as fast. And with so many distractions, you're more likely to get it wrong given that, as an AR, incredibly fast processing of multiple sources of different types of information is crucial to the role
As you get more experienced, a lot of that starts happening automatically. So things like which hand to hold the flag or raise it? That's starting to happen automatically, freeing up a bit more processing power.

What that means is when you have somebody who isn't used to being an AR, don't expect their decisions to be as fast as a neutral AR. It's on you, as the referee, to realise this and adapt. They're not only in an unfamiliar role but it's a role that they're not as highly engaged with as you are as refereeing. As a ref in the middle you are multitasking, but you learn that skill and your mind adapts to thinking in that fashion. You can successfully think about where the ball is going, where the attacker is, where his teammates are, where the defenders are, whether that defender looks like he's going to break his kneecaps, whether the attacker handled it as he stopped it, where you need to run to because X will happen, actually, let's run over there instead because I think Y will happen, but lets hold back slightly because there's a fair chance Z will happen, as well as what your AR is doing. You can pretty successfully think about that all at once because a lot of it becomes fairly reflexive thinking and your mind is prioritising the tasks like your computer's CPU is prioritising requests. Your poor club AR? Not only is he not used to the role, but he doesn't know all of that extra stuff, he only has a vague idea that he has a job to do, doesn't really know what the rules are but he's trying to think about them and the job and he doesn't want to be there and he's not trying to better himself - meaning literally everything he does is requiring conscious, deliberate though. AND because he's not thinking like a referee he's also distracted by watching the game!

There are stacks of psychology studies conducted on the effects of distractor tasks and familiarity on decision making processes.

Even with neutral AR's, they may not be responding as fast as you're looking. Especially when it's something like a lone striker receiving the ball unchallanged and it's not critical when you take your eyes off play, maybe look a moment later. Give your AR an extra moment or two.

Heck, sometimes as a ref you actually need to think for a moment before you make a decision. Sometimes as an AR it's not a bad thing to take a moment on the really close offsides. Maybe. Could probably start a whole other discussion on whether your reflexive decisions as an AR can lead you astray!

Thanks for the detailed and constructive response but I can’t help but think your comparing a simple task of raising a flag in the air for an offside (I’ve seen lino’s Holding dog leads in there hands, fag in one hand , coffee flask in one hand, on the phone in one hand) to say open heart surgery or landing an aeroplane.

On a more serious note I take on board what you say & I’ll give the Lino’s that second or two more before I spit my dummy out, your right in what you say about when you first start out I’m only 8 games in as a ref & it’s only now that I’m not having to checklist in my head before blowing for a decision, albeit as a ref your having to remember multiple things & not just the offside responsibility.

Ps I wouldn’t want to debate to much in the way of footy or life itself with you, I think i need a sit down :D
 
Atta boy, you learn early ;-)

Hahaha.

We've all had to deal with AR's that are a little bit on the slower side to respond. You just learn to adapt and respond differently to them. It's just a matter of balancing your glances to the AR against taking your eye off play (because you don't always have a direct line through the ball)
 
That’s it the balancing between eyes off play when to look at Lino, all will come with time I guess.

Joe bloggs off the street & footballers haven’t got a bloody clue how testing and complexed refereeing is.
 
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