Player Impeded by the Referee

[markref]

With respect, that’s a very unfair and biased assumption unless you apply it to yourself e.g. you should know where the ball is and “avoid the path”.

As one of your colleagues has already pointed out, he doesn’t have 360-degree vision, so neither do players.

Players, the ball and Referee’s are on the move during the game so accidental collisions can occur. All I am suggesting is that, to avoid player frustration as happened in the game I attended, could not a dropped ball be awarded in such (accidental) situations between the official and a player.

With respect, it’s a bit disingenuous to assume we are only watching the ball. There are 22 players who expect us to be watching everything they are doing / that’s happening to them as well.
We need to be aware of the ball so we can get the right position to see infringements, but if that was all we watched there would be carnage off the ball. There are often collisions between players as they run into position, and occasionally those flare up into red card incidents. I probably send one every couple of years after one of these.

I am merely talking about an accidental collision which, in this case, altered the course of the game. It could happen at any level.

Players need to understand that not every collision is the other person’s fault. The player is at least as much at fault as the referee on this occasion, but obviously his team didn’t see it that way. The player’s reaction got him sent off and changed the course of the game, not the collision and certainly not the referee.
Unfortunately if a drop ball were awarded for this there are people who will utilise this to their own advantage. There were a couple of managers on my supply league who used to spend time looking for loopholes like this to exploit.
I think it happens so infrequently that it’s not worth legislating for. We already have quite a lot of technical bits in the LOTG that are not used.

 

[The Don]

Can I refer you the match Referee's measured and reasonable response to my suggestion.
How many times does the ball hit the match Referee during a game. I've not seen many but it is still legislated for.
I doubt that players would be encouraged to deliberately collide with match Officials to get a dropped ball decision. I am talking about accidental collisions.
Again can I respectfully refer you to the actual match Referee's response.

 

[markref]

Can I refer you the match Referee's measured and reasonable response to my suggestion.
How many times does the ball hit the match Referee during a game. I've not seen many but it is still legislated for.
I doubt that players would be encouraged to deliberately collide with match Officials to get a dropped ball decision. I am talking about accidental collisions.
Again can I respectfully refer you to the actual match Referee’s response.

Wasn’t having a dig. I was saying that we are not the same as players and have a lot more we need to be aware of apart from the ball.

I must be cynical, but some of the “characters” in the game I know would do exactly this. I’ve seen this happen to a colleague, and it doesn’t have to be a major coming together - only a slight touch. That obviously wasn’t set up because there’s no benefit, but my friend had a player knock him out of the way as he ran for the ball, and because the player was behind him he wasn’t aware and went flying. Knowing the player this was intentional and was a cheap shot.

Besides, all they would need do is to get the referee to run across their path and claim to have been put off by him, or else trip him up and then claim he tripped them up. I’ve actually had this happen to me when I was tripped by a defender as he chased an attacker running with the ball towards the penalty area. On that occasion a drop ball would actually go the wrong way, because the player affected had no chance of catching the player. A drop ball to the defender would penalise the attacker who had a clear ogso. If you only penalise instances where it directly affects an outcome then you’re asking referees to decide if this is the case when they’ve been put off by a collision and may not be able to decide this accurately.

We don’t run from end to end, but try to get angles to see between players rather than looking from behind / through players so run across at an angle. This makes it more likely this will happen, so if there is an incentive then it makes it more likely still.

I’m not saying it’s a bad idea, or that I don’t agree in principle but I can see issues with it. Besides, if it’s a good idea then I’d expect IFAB to screw it up so it didn’t work how it should!

 

[Kes]

5hit happens.
Stop trying to blame the referee for all and everything that doesn't go your way.
The accidental impeding is as much the player's fault as the referee's.

 

[Anubis]

Dundee Utd had grounds to claim referee got in the way and cost them a goal yesterday v Celtic

however after conceeding this plus another 8 I thinking they away hiding in a box

 

[RustyRef]

Giving a dropped ball for colliding with a player or getting in their way absolutely isn't supported in law. Should it be? Possibly for a collision, but then what do you do if a player thinks you got in his way, and that happens a lot more often? Call me cynical, but players would just try it on and spend the entire game claiming you got in their way. And even if it just for collisions, you aren't always going to know whether the collision impacted the player's chances of getting to the ball. Whereas with the current law you will always know when the ball has hit you, and should be award that it changes possession as a result.

 

[socal lurker]

For context for the OP, the DB for the ball hitting the ref has only existed in the Laws for a few years (I'd say 3, but with COVID, I have no sense of time). For all of football history before that, the R was part of the field and we just played on. Might IFAB decide to expand that to player collisions? Maybe someday, but they haven't, so as of today (as others have said) there is no basis in Law for the R to stop play. My gut is that in real world applications it would cause more problems than it solves, but my gut doesn't matter as IFAB doesn't ask me before changing the Laws.

 

[one]

Here, have a dropped ball

 

[The Don]

5hit happens.
Stop trying to blame the referee for all and everything that doesn't go your way.
The accidental impeding is as much the player's fault as the referee's.

With respect, that is an appalling attitude from a match official. If you would care to read the actual match referee's comments on the situation, you will find that he wishes he had the dropped ball option in his 'toolbox'.
If you would also care to read the match situation again you will find that, rightly or wrongly, this led to an unnecessary Red Card. Had the referee had the dropped ball option, the incident might not have occurred.
I'm only a neutral spectator and the player is out there trying to do his best. I don't mind people having a different view to mine but, please try to look at both sides before making an inappropriate comment.

 

[one]

With respect, that is an appalling attitude from a match official. If you would care to read the actual match referee's comments on the situation, you will find that he wishes he had the dropped ball option in his 'toolbox'.
If you would also care to read the match situation again you will find that, rightly or wrongly, this led to an unnecessary Red Card. Had the referee had the dropped ball option, the incident might not have occurred.
I'm only a neutral spectator and the player is out there trying to do his best. I don't mind people having a different view to mine but, please try to look at both sides before making an inappropriate comment.

Assuming you are new. Give it a few years and you'd have an appalling attitude like the rest of us (in opposed to being an idealist).... With respect of course

 

[The Don]

I don't know what you mean by 'new'. I'm a 74 year-old spectator and I don't need patronising. I have a view and others have views so please don't be so sarcastic.

 

[one]

I don't know what you mean by 'new'. I'm a 74 year-old spectator and I don't need patronising. I have a view and others have views so please don't be so sarcastic.

Glad you got the point. Some of it anyway. The rest is about starting a post with "with respect" but being disrespectful in the rest of the post is not OK. There is a choice of using different wording that opposes a view but is not disrespectfully.

Anyway, I am sure the mods don't like where this is going so I shall cease.

 

[Anubis]

With respect, that is an appalling attitude from a match official. If you would care to read the actual match referee's comments on the situation, you will find that he wishes he had the dropped ball option in his 'toolbox'.
If you would also care to read the match situation again you will find that, rightly or wrongly, this led to an unnecessary Red Card. Had the referee had the dropped ball option, the incident might not have occurred.
I'm only a neutral spectator and the player is out there trying to do his best. I don't mind people having a different view to mine but, please try to look at both sides before making an inappropriate comment.

Funny enough I dont mind biting

The referee by his own admission got in the way and so the wronged player sought revenge by cementing an opponent

am going to guess there was some abuse to the referee also


memo to self, next time am in my fav Italian and my pizza is overly crisp, i will walk up to table 5 and smack the guy in the face. Had my pizza been doughy as I like it, I might not have taken it out on someone else

why would I in reality not do this? Because I am responsible for my own actions.

 

[The Don]

I apologise to the mods and others but the term "With respect" that I use means that I respectfully/politely disagree with something and offer my version.
Anyway, I will leave it there and hope everyone has felt that the debate was useful.

 

[JamesL]

With respect, that is an appalling attitude from a match official. If you would care to read the actual match referee's comments on the situation, you will find that he wishes he had the dropped ball option in his 'toolbox'.
If you would also care to read the match situation again you will find that, rightly or wrongly, this led to an unnecessary Red Card. Had the referee had the dropped ball option, the incident might not have occurred.
I'm only a neutral spectator and the player is out there trying to do his best. I don't mind people having a different view to mine but, please try to look at both sides before making an inappropriate comment.

It feels like you are trying to mitigate the players actions due to the referee being caught up with play which I can't agree with, whether there is a 'tool' to deal with it or not is neither here nor there.
The player for sent off because he committed a red card offence. What lead to that is immaterial.
As another example, if a player disagrees with the referees decision, that is dissent. Doesn't matter if the decision is right or wrong it is still an offence to show dissent towards the match official and their decision.
If a player is aggrieved by something that happens in a game, that does not then mitigate any future action of that player.
To say that the player is out there doing his best I find hard to see eye to eye with that, as his best should include being able to contain/manage his emotions to a point that at the bare minimum stops him endangering his opponents. If he can't do that, then really he ought to not be on the pitch.

A referee, being on a football pitch is nothing new, a referee moving around a football pitch is nothing new, a referee being close to play should be expected, and thus players need to factor in the referees position and potential movements just as the referee must do the same. Having been in similar position as to the match referee myself I still sit on the side of this should not stop play. It rarely has a direct impact on play itself, and would only serve to negatively affect the team that is attacking and positively impact the defending team.

 

[The Don]

I don't disagree with your contribution; all valid points. The point I was trying to get across was that, in this game, if the referee had been allowed to give a dropped ball, the Red Card situation would not have occurred. I didn't condone the player's subsequent immediate reaction for which the match Referee took the appropriate action.
I have just had a thought that I might write to the Football Association Referees' Committee and ask for their views on this and my other hobby-horse, the Penalty Goal.
I agree with you and others that players should be in control of their emotions but, with everyone being different, it's not always possible in the heat of the game otherwise there would be no need for Red and Yellow cards.
It was just a preventative measure that I was proposing and, understandably, people at the sharp end see problems with that.

 

[Kes]

With respect, that is an appalling attitude from a match official. If you would care to read the actual match referee's comments on the situation, you will find that he wishes he had the dropped ball option in his 'toolbox'.
If you would also care to read the match situation again you will find that, rightly or wrongly, this led to an unnecessary Red Card. Had the referee had the dropped ball option, the incident might not have occurred.
I'm only a neutral spectator and the player is out there trying to do his best. I don't mind people having a different view to mine but, please try to look at both sides before making an inappropriate comment.

You're entitled to your opinion. I simply disagree with it.

If you think that a player "trying to do his best" is seriously fouling another player because of nothing more than (selfish) frustration then I'm sorry to tell you that you're completely wrong and it's attitudes like yours that help to perpetuate the ongoing myth that football players are nothing but benign sportsmen and that everything they do or say on the field is somehow linked into or attributable to the referee.
As an ex player and now a referee I fancy that I can see both sides. It's you that can't or won't.

 

[The Don]

You're entitled to your opinion. I simply disagree with it.

If you think that a player "trying to do his best" is seriously fouling another player because of nothing more than (selfish) frustration then I'm sorry to tell you that you're completely wrong and it's attitudes like yours that help to perpetuate the ongoing myth that football players are nothing but benign sportsmen and that everything they do or say on the field is somehow linked into or attributable to the referee.
As an ex player and now a referee I fancy that I can see both sides. It's you that can't or won't.

Please don't read things that are not there. I did not condone the actions of the player, I merely stated that it was a consequence of the previous action which may have been prevented by a dropped ball. Why are you so touchy about someone's opinion that you disagree with?
I described a single incident which I witnessed and which the match Referee agreed with.

 

[GraemeS]

Referees don't control what players do. A player choosing to launch themselves into a red card tackle is a "consequence" of that player being an ill-disciplined thug, nothing more.

I've sent multiple players off in my refereeing career. I don't think a single one of them carried out the actions resulting in their sending off because of me. At best, they were annoyed by my decisions and weren't disciplined enough to keep it to themselves - that's still their problem, not mine.

I think the idea that referees actions can "cause" red card challenges / punches / OFFINABUS is an extremely problematic concept, one that simultaneously gives player too much and too little credit, and is an idea that isn't likely to get much support among a group of experienced referees. It's also one that is pervasive in the media and in the minds of multiple players we all encounter, and which we're all conditioned to dismiss.

I'm sure no one intended to be rude in disagreeing, but you have to recall we're all referees and we've all been accused of "ruining" games or having "That's your fault ref" shouted as us when a bad tackle goes in. I literally only have to go back to last weekend and I can recall a yellow card I gave (that was borderline red TBH) where the player tried to blame me because he didn't get a soft foul seconds earlier so decided to launch himself in in retribution. The drop ball example you give is less of the referee's "fault", but it certainly brings back memories of similar incidents from my career and I'm sure that's the same for every other commenter here too.

 

[Kes]

Please don't read things that are not there. I did not condone the actions of the player, I merely stated that it was a consequence of the previous action which may have been prevented by a dropped ball. Why are you so touchy about someone's opinion that you disagree with?
I described a single incident which I witnessed and which the match Referee agreed with.

"Touchy" isn't how I'd describe myself. Realistic is my approach. You described my earlier post as "an appalling attitude" which might make anybody "touchy".

Football refereeing is subjective in all but one or two areas and so it comes down to you seeing a referee impeding a player which I don't. You described the subsequent red card as "unnecessary" which it clearly wasn't and then suggest that a change to the laws might have prevented it. I say a change to the player's attitude/personality would have prevented it. We can go around the houses all day long with this one (before forum admin jumps in) but we clearly come from totally different perspectives so why not "leave it" now as you suugested you would earlier.

"Touchy" of Somerset.