Overprotecting the goalkeeper

[GraemeS]

Agreed. Alot of it is going a bit over the top to tick a box or show that you're away of the laws of the game. But without doing this how can you show that you know them to meet the criteria? Its not a betrayal of principles. I've always allowed the whole sock tape thing etc at early promotions on a Sunday League game and just highlighted to the observer that I've seen it and spoken to the player but accepted that it's the spirit of the game at that level. Never had an issue. Obviously someone might but that conundrum is the same with all observers at the bottom levels. There's some strange ones around! but most just need to know that you're aware of the laws and understand at that level of football you're lucky that they've got 11 shirts even remotely the same colour never mind the other stuff

I think in recent seasons there's been a real behind the scenes effort to get observers to stop being dicks about sock tape! I definitely had it make the "development points" in a few on my 7-6 observations around 5 years ago, but I agree that in recent years the convention seems to have become that it's mentioned in the debrief, but shouldn't really make it to the written report unless it actively resulted in problems.

 

[Ben448844]

I think in recent seasons there's been a real behind the scenes effort to get observers to stop being dicks about sock tape! I definitely had it make the "development points" in a few on my 7-6 observations around 5 years ago, but I agree that in recent years the convention seems to have become that it's mentioned in the debrief, but shouldn't really make it to the written report unless it actively resulted in problems.

My first ever observation involved a guy with long dreads and a bright yellow bandana (his team were wearing green). He also had an earing in. Got the earing tsken out and had the convo with him that its a safety issue if he doesn't wear it but it should match his team colours but as its Sunday League we'll crack on under spirit of the game. Did it under the observers nose and he was happy that I'd noticed it and not been an idiot and asked him to remove it etc. Never happened before or since, fortunately the old grey matter was working that morning and I thought sensibly.

 

[one]

I'd love @Big Cat 's thoughts on this - I remember a few seasons ago he was "promotion-sceptical" based on similar reasons such as this.

Now with the L5 badge on their profile, I wonder if they still see the promotion pathway as requiring quite the same level of betrayal to the principals of football? In my experience on this forum, people who have never attempted promotion love to assume it's a constant stream of observers telling you to be strict on sock tape and lax on everything else. In reality, the sock tape bit is often true but the other bit isn't!

My post was not a sweeping statement. The fact is that advise is being given here and in my experience also out there. It's not a constant stream, but they are there. Have seen the type of advise given first hand by those who misunderstand the meaning of phrases like "no surprise refereeing", "managing the event".

 

[socal lurker]

One person's "smart refereeing" is another's "just making $%# up." Some instructors hold the book and show that it isn't rigid and talk about the difference between bending and breaking the Laws. It can be a fine line sometimes, with lots of gray area (and situational factors) that make the line hard to see. I think there are different perspectives on where the line lies that are different than mine--but I also think it is possible to go too far in either direction.

 

[RustyRef]

The fact is that at senior levels you are doing more than refereeing a game of football, you are managing an event. Referees at level 3 and above, and to some extent level 4, will rarely give decisions when they are the only person that thinks they have seen something. That might be a penalty decision where no one appeals, or a deflection that no one else has seen. If everyone from both teams are setting up for a goal kick they simply are not going to give a corner.

To use an example that I experienced first hand when I was on the line for a Conference South game. As the ball went out for a throw-in I saw it brushed off the left back's studs so I signalled an attacking throw. The referee, who I had worked with loads and got on really well with, just smiled at me and went the other way. I asked him about it after and he said he had overruled not because he doubted me, but rather the left back had gone to pick up the ball and the attacking players had assumed a position to defend it, so my indication had surprised everyone. His coach, a former Premier League referee, was there and completely agreed with him, saying I should have delayed to look at the player reaction before signalling.

 

[Ben448844]

The fact is that at senior levels you are doing more than refereeing a game of football, you are managing an event. Referees at level 3 and above, and to some extent level 4, will rarely give decisions when they are the only person that thinks they have seen something. That might be a penalty decision where no one appeals, or a deflection that no one else has seen. If everyone from both teams are setting up for a goal kick they simply are not going to give a corner.

To use an example that I experienced first hand when I was on the line for a Conference South game. As the ball went out for a throw-in I saw it brushed off the left back's studs so I signalled an attacking throw. The referee, who I had worked with loads and got on really well with, just smiled at me and went the other way. I asked him about it after and he said he had overruled not because he doubted me, but rather the left back had gone to pick up the ball and the attacking players had assumed a position to defend it, so my indication had surprised everyone. His coach, a former Premier League referee, was there and completely agreed with him, saying I should have delayed to look at the player reaction before signalling.

I get what you're saying but when we use the initial example of a shot that's taken a deflection, you're signalling instantly for a corner if you've seen a touch. There's no time for anyone to set up for a goal kick, I'm giving it as soon as its crosses the line. I think that gives you a lot of credit for the rest of the game, especially if you're clever enough to let the defender know you've seen it and then any complaints you can walk away and just tell them to speak to the defender.

 

[RustyRef]

I get what you're saying but when we use the initial example of a shot that's taken a deflection, you're signalling instantly for a corner if you've seen a touch. There's no time for anyone to set up for a goal kick, I'm giving it as soon as its crosses the line. I think that gives you a lot of credit for the rest of the game, especially if you're clever enough to let the defender know you've seen it and then any complaints you can walk away and just tell them to speak to the defender.

Playing devil's advocate though, perhaps your eyes have played tricks on you and there wasn't actually a deflection. When it is obvious then yes I agree, and I too would be going corner with a quick whistle to make sure the AR doesn't go GK. But when you think you have seen a slight touch, one that doesn't really change the trajectory of the ball, that's where buying your time can be beneficial.

 

[Big Cat]

I remember a few seasons ago he was "promotion-sceptical"

I'm not really sure what you mean by this

Being on the promotion path keeps me honest and focused on my game. It gives me a sense of purpose and ensures my standards don't drop
But the level to which a Referee has attained, does not define how good they are; as measured by what I think is important... Managing games to a safe, enjoyable and fair outcome with regularity
The 'right decision' is usually one that contributes to this outcome (and is the right decision for me), rather than that motivated by a good score

 

[Anubis]

I get what you're saying but when we use the initial example of a shot that's taken a deflection, you're signalling instantly for a corner if you've seen a touch. There's no time for anyone to set up for a goal kick, I'm giving it as soon as its crosses the line. I think that gives you a lot of credit for the rest of the game, especially if you're clever enough to let the defender know you've seen it and then any complaints you can walk away and just tell them to speak to the defender.

Seconding Rustys post.

I guess its somethinh that you need to have reached ( or will reach) elite level to understand.

The elite give what the game needs, its not refereeing as known at mere mortal level.
Diff sets of players, diff mindsets, 40,000 home fans, observer knows the ref can makes calls, he wants to see the ref manage the game.

Maybe report back when you have been the only one to see a pk at 0-0 to the away team in front of 40,000 home fans.
Its then you ask yourself three weeks later, why did i do that, and, lesson learnt, am not doing that again

 

[Ben448844]

Seconding Rustys post.

I guess its somethinh that you need to have reached ( or will reach) elite level to understand.

The elite give what the game needs, its not refereeing as known at mere mortal level.
Diff sets of players, diff mindsets, 40,000 home fans, observer knows the ref can makes calls, he wants to see the ref manage the game.

Maybe report back when you have been the only one to see a pk at 0-0 to the away team in front of 40,000 home fans.
Its then you ask yourself three weeks later, why did i do that, and, lesson learnt, am not doing that again

You're just throwing in further examples.to take away from the point which was about the corner.

I agree about the PK that no one else has seen. But that's a KMI that means you're the news. A corner/goal kick decision that you 100% know is right is very different.

 

[Anubis]

You're just throwing in further examples.to take away from the point which was about the corner.

I agree about the PK that no one else has seen. But that's a KMI that means you're the news. A corner/goal kick decision that you 100% know is right is very different.

Lets agree to disagree.

at top level, on line, you give what the ref and game want. Talk fast, flag slow.
it might well be a free kick you are thinking of giving but you run it by the ref first..ditto as ref, you are saying down comms " no, dont give me that", and of course the opposite .
The ball skiffing off for a corner but 40,000 home fans and all bar you on line think its a goal kick, your referee be shouting ' goal kick'
you decide to stick to your guns and flag corner, you will be overuled, you will look inept to the players and fans and you will be the one copping the black mark for going against the referee. Try it and see and report back
talk fast, flag slow.
As Rusty says, ball out and its touched blues shoelaces, yet to everybody else its went straight out, talk fast, flag slow, and the throw goes to blue.
likewise the corner/goal kick.
give the surprise corner, header, goal, 0-1. you are news. For to the masses had you not given the corner, we dont get the goal.
this is exactly the answer to the op, why the gk gets the fk. Safe refereeing, nobody goes home blaming the ref.
It answers why smaller teams dont get the pk, one, they are not in the pen area as much, and two, it has to be nailed on.

its one you really need to experience to have knowledge of.

 

[one]

I am not too worried about subjective decisions where the referee has discretion on those. I am talking about factual black and white decisions. At top level referees can't get away with not giving the correct decision because of tv replay. And if something big comes off the back of an incorrect decision which was because it was what everyone expected then there will be the media coverage afterward as well.

Let me reverse the corner example. Defender clears the ball and only referee sees it slightly touched an attacker before going over the goal line. Everyone sets for a corner. Should the referee give the correct goal kick decision or give what everyone expects?

 

[Anubis]

I am not too worried about subjective decisions where the referee has discretion on those. I am talking about factual black and white decisions. At top level referees can't get away with not giving the correct decision because of tv replay. And if something big comes off the back of an incorrect decision which was because it was what everyone expected then there will be the media coverage afterward as well.

Let me reverse the corner example. Defender clears the ball and only referee sees it slightly touched an attacker before going over the goal line. Everyone sets for a corner. Should the referee give the correct goal kick decision or give what everyone expects?

Any excellent ref already knows not to be the only person to see something, so the situation should not arise

but in the senario ...

Ref would blow instantly for goal kick, avoiding anybody being set up for anything
option two if there is a ceremonial set up is stick with your corner then do what has been done since day 1, find an attacking foul. Predictable, but tried and tested. Even the players know its coming.

 

[Matthew]

Any excellent ref already knows not to be the only person to see something, so the situation should not arise

but in the senario ...

Ref would blow instantly for goal kick, avoiding anybody being set up for anything
option two if there is a ceremonial set up is stick with your corner then do what has been done since day 1, find an attacking foul. Predictable, but tried and tested. Even the players know its coming.

I'm getting slightly tired of your assertion that you have to give decisions that you know are wrong to be an excellent ref. To go back to the original example of the GK/corner, that is an objective decision. It's black and white.

We all know that there's an element of managing the occasion at higher levels, but I just don't (and never will) buy that it is the right thing to give a deliberately wrong decision.

 

[GraemeS]

The point is that if you think you've seen a touch and 22 players + 40,000 supporters think there is no touch....who's to say you're right?

It's a standard part of neutral AR briefing to ask for the AR to flag for penalties only if the referee is staring at them for a decision and there is an appeal. Because if the ref doesn't think he's seen a penalty, and no players think there should be a penalty, the last thing you should be doing is sticking your flag up and trying to insist on a foul that no one else wants. Because in that scenario, you're probably just wrong.

 

[Ben448844]

Lets agree to disagree.

at top level, on line, you give what the ref and game want. Talk fast, flag slow.
it might well be a free kick you are thinking of giving but you run it by the ref first..ditto as ref, you are saying down comms " no, dont give me that", and of course the opposite .
The ball skiffing off for a corner but 40,000 home fans and all bar you on line think its a goal kick, your referee be shouting ' goal kick'
you decide to stick to your guns and flag corner, you will be overuled, you will look inept to the players and fans and you will be the one copping the black mark for going against the referee. Try it and see and report back
talk fast, flag slow.
As Rusty says, ball out and its touched blues shoelaces, yet to everybody else its went straight out, talk fast, flag slow, and the throw goes to blue.
likewise the corner/goal kick.
give the surprise corner, header, goal, 0-1. you are news. For to the masses had you not given the corner, we dont get the goal.
this is exactly the answer to the op, why the gk gets the fk. Safe refereeing, nobody goes home blaming the ref.
It answers why smaller teams dont get the pk, one, they are not in the pen area as much, and two, it has to be nailed on.

its one you really need to experience to have knowledge of.

That's just patronising, you don't need the experience to understand it. Its very simple to understand. I was talking from the referees perspective who's seen the deflection. Dont get me wrong, I agree with your general point about managing the game and I've had those very points made to me by ex PL refs at development meetings. My point is specific to the example given earlier. I think that can be managed by the referee and achieve the correct outcome quite simply. I could be wrong of course

 

[Keeday]

One of the earliest bits of advice given to me when I started out refereeing (by a Premier League referee giving a talk at a County FA event) was it doesn’t matter if you’re right or wrong, it matters if the players THINK you’re right or wrong.

And I think that’s what refereeing is all about - managing the game and the players expectations.

I say this having last Saturday given a corner when only I saw the ball skim off a players behind as he closed down the shot - even the attackers were lining up for the goal kick. Kicked myself for being too quick, found an attacking foul and the game moved on.

 

[RustyRef]

Here's the thing. It doesn't matter how good a referee you are or you think you are, you will make mistakes. You will blink at an inopportune moment, you will have your view blocked, and you will see a slight touch that just hasn't happened. If you are the only person that sees a slight flick off a defenders shorts or studs, and everyone is happily lining up for a goal kick, there is a very high chance that what you think you saw just didn't happen and rather was a trick of the eye or an optical illusion. The same applies to a throw-in that everyone thinks is one way and you think the other, through to a penalty that only you have seen. I once had the approach of I would give whatever I thought I had seen, even if everyone else thought I was wrong, but it took me to move away from that approach to let me progress through to L4 and then L3.

 

[one]

Any excellent ref already knows not to be the only person to see something, so the situation should not arise

but in the senario ...

Ref would blow instantly for goal kick, avoiding anybody being set up for anything
option two if there is a ceremonial set up is stick with your corner then do what has been done since day 1, find an attacking foul. Predictable, but tried and tested. Even the players know its coming.

Is the the perfect example of hindsight being 20-20.

In this scenario (attacker last slight touch) an excellent referee knows in order not to be the only one who has seen something he'd have to blow straight away. While in your version of the reversed scenario (defender last slight touch) in order for him not to be the only one who has seen something he'd have to wait and see what others expect. Hope you can see how this logic can't work in the real world.

Or are we just saying give the restart to the defenders in any close factual call, even though we know it's the wrong call?

What happens when it's a throw in in the middle does he wait or does he blow for a direction immediately ?

 

[Ben448844]

Is the the perfect example of hindsight being 20-20.

In this scenario (attacker last slight touch) an excellent referee knows in order not to be the only one who has seen something he'd have to blow straight away. While in your version of the reversed scenario (defender last slight touch) in order for him not to be the only one who has seen something he'd have to wait and see what others expect. Hope you can see how this logic can't work in the real world.

Or are we just saying give the restart to the defenders in any close factual call, even though we know it's the wrong call?

What happens when it's a throw in in the middle does he wait or does he blow for a direction immediately ?

Agreed. For the flick of a defender you're giving the decision straight away. It's not a hard sell.

If you wait for the reaction of the players a couple of times then that brings its own problems, although there's certainly times you can do this.