PinnerPaul
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Thoughts?
Open Letter from Middlesex FA to all stakeholders
- Thread starter PinnerPaul
- Start date
Thoughts?
I'm finding more and more issues when I referee Youth/Academy games. The coaches behave badly, so the players do too.
The best youth teams have been those where the managers tell the players to pipe down and play, regardless of whether the referee is having a bad day or not, which is how it should be IMO.
The best youth teams have been those where the managers tell the players to pipe down and play, regardless of whether the referee is having a bad day or not, which is how it should be IMO.
Everybody is realising this, but retention is the most serious problem in the game.
How do we solve? Greater penalties for the offenders? Possible, but they will quit that team and go an play 6-a-side mid-week!
One of the problems is the lack of club volunteers, so that the committee cannot get rid of bad managers, as nobody will take over the team. So the club fold.
I think the biggest cause of the young referees leaving is parents in Junior football. They are "living their football though their children, and expect their kid to be Messi". Any failing is therefore the referees fault...
Where there is known to be a problem club, the CFA should send their own members to watch the match, and make the charges if necessary. Not waiting for the referees report.
How do we solve? Greater penalties for the offenders? Possible, but they will quit that team and go an play 6-a-side mid-week!
One of the problems is the lack of club volunteers, so that the committee cannot get rid of bad managers, as nobody will take over the team. So the club fold.
I think the biggest cause of the young referees leaving is parents in Junior football. They are "living their football though their children, and expect their kid to be Messi". Any failing is therefore the referees fault...
Where there is known to be a problem club, the CFA should send their own members to watch the match, and make the charges if necessary. Not waiting for the referees report.
Every county is the same, I know of one county where retention from last season is down by 40%. Covid hasn't just affected health, it has affected the mind, and I know of lots of referees who have decided that they didn't miss it enough during lock down to come back. Perhaps they realised spending more time with their families was important, or maybe they just realised that not being shouted and screamed at on a Saturday and Sunday was a welcome relief and vowed not to go back to it.
On top of that you have BREXIT, certainly in the London area lots of referees have left the UK so that has left a huge gap. Then there are some referees that are still concerned about Covid, perhaps they are vulnerable or they live with people that are. And of course there have been no courses for 20 months so no new referees to replace those that have left.
It is a major crisis, FA Cup games have gone without officials and L5s have been used on Contrib games, these things are unheard of. CFAs posting things like this and might make a small bit of difference, but the action has to come from the FA. It has to start with them, and the very first thing has to be instructing PGMOL to order their officials to crack down on dissent, OFFINABUS and manager behaviour, as this is copied in the grass roots game. I won't hold my breath though ...
On top of that you have BREXIT, certainly in the London area lots of referees have left the UK so that has left a huge gap. Then there are some referees that are still concerned about Covid, perhaps they are vulnerable or they live with people that are. And of course there have been no courses for 20 months so no new referees to replace those that have left.
It is a major crisis, FA Cup games have gone without officials and L5s have been used on Contrib games, these things are unheard of. CFAs posting things like this and might make a small bit of difference, but the action has to come from the FA. It has to start with them, and the very first thing has to be instructing PGMOL to order their officials to crack down on dissent, OFFINABUS and manager behaviour, as this is copied in the grass roots game. I won't hold my breath though ...
Until the FA and PGMOL start a change in players behaviour, it is not going to change at the bottom.
And then it will take time to filter down to us at the grassroots level.
In York, we have clubs already questioning the purposes of the league and the CFA, when they are having an organised kick about, as no referee appointed.
And then it will take time to filter down to us at the grassroots level.
In York, we have clubs already questioning the purposes of the league and the CFA, when they are having an organised kick about, as no referee appointed.
If you have 30 matches to cover and only 15 referees, you're at a 50% coverage. If 10 of the teams are harshly but appropriately punished and quit, suddenly these are 5 less matches to cover, so your coverage goes up to 60%...
For the avoidance of doubt, this is of course a joke! But I don't have a huge issue with the overall principal - at my job I have a code of conduct I'm expected to follow, and if I choose to step outside that, I would expect to be punished appropriately, up to and including no longer being allowed to participate in doing that job if necessary. Football players also have a code of conduct for when they're on the pitch - law 12 of the LOTG. Actions coming with associated consequences shouldn't be a surprise to those players.
It has to start with FIFA and IFAB
socal lurker
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No it doesn't. (And I'm not sure what IFAB has to do with it--the Laws are already clear about how misconduct is to be handled and the authority of referees to manage it.)
In the U16/U19 program I ref for, they used to have a lot of problems with coach and parent behavior. The head of the league came to referee meetings and said basically "I'm tired of referees complaining about behavior and not dealing with it. If a coach misbehaves, send the coach off. If a parent is a problem, have the coach remove the parent. We will back you up." And coaches were told the same thing. A couple of years later--after a slew of dismissals--coach and parent problems were minor. The most important part of it was the league being clear to referees and coaches as to what the behavior expectations are and that the league would back the referees. When that happened things improved.
Yes, having the professionals handle misconduct better and set an example would help a lot. But that doesn't mean more local action can't happen or is ineffective--but it has to be action that supports referees not just lip service. Alas, far too often what happens is talk that sounds good but is never more than talk and fades after a few weeks.
The only meaningful precedent, is that set on TV. The FA's Respect campaign made zero difference. My Supply League's initiative is a waste of posters
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socal lurker
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I just gave a specific example of how it is not only what happens on TV that is effective precedent that can change behavior. It's not the only actual example I know of where local action worked. But it takes dedication to actual action, not just talk.The problem with so many campaigns is that they are talk without action. If the league actually supports dissent cautions and 2CT send offs for dissent, and Rs actually give them, word gets around the league, regardless of what happens on TV.
Players and coaches don't misbehave only because they see it on TV. They do it because they see it on TV and then they get away with it on the field. I really don't think players and coaches in the UK are dumber than the ones in the US and unable to learn from what is going on around them.
The problem with so many campaigns is that they are talk without action. If the league actually supports dissent cautions and 2CT send offs for dissent, and Rs actually give them, word gets around the league, regardless of what happens on TV.
Players and coaches don't misbehave only because they see it on TV. They do it because they see it on TV and then they get away with it on the field. I really don't think players and coaches in the UK are dumber than the ones in the US and unable to learn from what is going on around them.
You gave an example of an initiative that made a difference on your side; I countered that with an equivalent that made no difference over hereThe culture is so entrenched over here. The FA seem powerless. Hence 'talk, no action'
It has to be a 'top down' approach. I don't think I can be swayed on that. Alas, that's why I can't see it happening
socal lurker
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As far as I can tell from this side of the pond, the FA program was all talk with no action. Mere talk at the top doesn't change anything--FIFA talks at times, too, but lacks action. I don't think the difference is top versus local, but rather action versus talk--it is only action that sets actual expectations. The reason things that I have seen have worked is because there was a commitment to actually take action instead of just bemoaning the problem and asking people to be better.
RefJef
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So basically that head of the league has come in and said that its the referees fault that the referees are getting abuse.
As someone who is definitely wavering, and wondering if it is worth continuing, I think that would be a tipping point and I would be walking away from his league.
For me, I used to derive a great deal of satisfaction from doing a difficult job well. I wouldn’t say I’ve received any serious abuse, but I’m just fed up of the constant low level whinging from players. I’ve spent a lot of time (too long!) thinking about why I referee and Ive realised that a significant motivation for me is receiving appreciation from others. If I really am spoiling peoples enjoyment by “ruining the game” then it’s probably best of all round if I don’t turn up next week.
I’m now much more picky about the games I do, no longer do “my” Sunday league and did actually enjoy my last few games, so may keep going a bit longer.
socal lurker
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No, I don't think that was the message at all. The message was about support: the league would support the expulsions, not criticize refs for them. But yes, it was also a call to action. Refs are the in-game enforcers. The league can set expectations and suspend those who are expelled, but it also takes the refs being willing to give those in-game consequences.
Agree but its a very difficult thing to do. I've had plenty of refs who when I've asked about sin bin procedure for the ARs have replied with "there won't be any" etc. Too difficult to bother with, they'd rather put up with the abuse. I appreciate where they're coming from but it does render sin bins pointless if alot of refs won't use them.
This is in no way me saying abuse is referees fault. Not at all and neither was it the intention of the chap who wrote the letter for sure.
RefJef
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I agree that he was probably trying to be supportive but instead of saying I’m tired of the lack of respect referees are shown, he’s said he’s tired of referees complaining and not doing anything about it. So the implication is that it is the referees fault, and the league expect the referees to take action.
I know he is trying to empower referees, but a poor choice of phrasing. Perhaps he should be asking why referees are not dealing with the behaviour
Although we're not aligned on the subject we were debating, I agree, @RefJef has got the wrong end of the stick WRT your post
Whilst we remain opposed on the subject to some degree, I don't think there was anything wrong with the initiative your League imposed
What do you think the answer is? Personally, I'd always want Refereeing to be challenging on an inter-personal basis and I don't mind the low level (or even high level) dissent. What worries me, is it's gone way too far. Ref's routinely being chased back to cars, parents scrapping in the mud at youth games, vile abuse of professional footballers/referees, pro-referees with their hands ties behind their backs (whilst taking dogs abuse from all sides) and so on
My argument was merely that it has to come from the top
No point the FA/EPL doing one thing whilst the rest of Europe/ROTW do another, cos guess which of those would dominate the outcome?
socal lurker
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I think that is more about how I phrased it then how the message was delivered. The message was that the league wanted to support refs and deal with misbehavior, but included the fact that to accomplish that the league needed refs to participate and not just complain after the fact. There isn't much the league can do when the season is over and refs say that so-and-so was a PITA all season but that coach was never sent off and the issues were never reported to the league during the season. Refs have to be part of the solution here, unless leagues have the resources to have someone else be at games and sanction teams on that basis.* What leagues can do most is support refs taking action and encourage refs across the league to take action.
I'd also add that, especially at the youth level, it's important for experienced referees to help shape behavior. We can't let inappropriate things go because they aren't enough to bother us; we need to sanction such conduct to teach proper behavior to help the newbie ref who can't.
(OK, I've posted too much on this already, so I am going to withdraw as I think I've made my opinions pretty clear.)
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* One of my other real world examples is a youth league that had a culture of parent problems, especially at younger ages. They send a board member to all 10U games [their youngest competitive level that combines overenthusiastic parents with new refs], and the board members tossed parents--no warnings, no second chances. The changed the culture of their league.)